#93 How and Why to Start Swinging (and Insights into Cam Modelling) with Swinging MILF

[Angel Donovan]: Hey there, it's great to have you on the show.

[Swinging MILF]: Thanks for having me.

[Angel Donovan]: So, let's get a bit of perspective on where you're coming from. Can you give us a few details to your background, where your relationship lifestyle is at today, how old you are, where do you live and those kinds of things?

[Swinging MILF]: Sure, I've married for...actually tomorrow May 19th will be my eighth year wedding anniversary.

[Angel Donovan]: Congratulations.

[Swinging MILF]: Thanks.

[Angel Donovan]: Two years away from the big one.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, right? So, we're celebrating eight years and we'll actually also be celebrating two years in the lifestyle tomorrow as well. We went out on our anniversary for our first lifestyle event as swingers.

So, we're more new in the lifestyle than a lot of swingers out there but, we've definitely dipped our toes in significantly now to have a good idea of what it's like and I live in the Midwest of the US. So, I'm sure you can already tell by my accent. I just have really enjoyed being in the swinging lifestyle that I've decided to kind of put myself out there a little bit more to share my stories.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, great so, you're in your 30s?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh sorry, you asked that. I'm not offended. Yes, I am 30.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Swinging MILF]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: I was just on the edge there. I could have got into trouble if you were 29 or something.

[Swinging MILF]: No.

[Angel Donovan]: It was a rough guess. So, I know you also do cam modeling. How long have you been doing that for?

[Swinging MILF]: I have been doing cam modeling just shy of the two year mark. It's funny because, when I entered into the swinger lifestyle, my husband and I met somebody else who was a cam model and I had no idea what it was. I was very naive to the whole internet besides recorded porn, like what is out there today. I heard someone talking about it and it kind of intrigued me.

So, we talked it over and just a few months into the lifestyle is when I decided to become a cam model. So, not that long with that either but, I really have grown to enjoy it and it's a great way to make so extra money. So, that part helps a lot too.

[Angel Donovan]: That's very cool. So, I wanted to kind of run an idea by you, I guess because, I was interested to how you got to this point where you're swinging and then got into the cam thing. I want to run this little idea by you. I've just been thinking about it today so, I'll run it by someone is, you've heard the concept of gate-way drugs, before?

[Swinging MILF]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay so, to give you a bit of more of my context, right? When I was about, even 23 or something, I was at university and my friends would make fun of me because, I couldn't say boobs or tits or words like those because, I was just...it was just embarrassing for me and I was very conservative to the point where I am actually very sexually open today but, that's been a process over many, many years with some jumps and, you know, starts and other things but then, when I think about where I am today...if I looked back you know when I was like 17 or 23, I'd be like, "What the hell happened there? How did you get there?" It's like somewhere I never thought I would have ended up.

So these days, I think...and I think for the audience at home, sometimes when they think about swinging or maybe they think about cam modeling or any of these kind of lifestyles, it's very extreme for them. So, I wanted to give them a bit of perspective on how you think you got to where you are today. Has there been kind of like any gateway sexual experiences on the trip, like kind of milestones?

I think you just kind of like...it's like, "I got into swinging and then I was basically, I had different people around me and when of them was talking about..." and maybe you're relating to those people and they're talking about cam modeling and you're like, "Oh, that's interesting" but, if you hadn't done swinging first, maybe you wouldn't have been open to that you know, where you wouldn't come into touch with people and so on.

So, I'm just interested in your journey. What do you think of your journey, how you got to where you are, maybe like starting from when you were a teenager or wherever, where you felt it started?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh, that I love...by the way, that is a great way to think of it. Like, I had never thought of it that way as far as like "the gate-way drug" scenario or comparison. So...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah unfortunately, gate-way drugs are kind of labeled as a bad thing. So, I'm not sure it's the best way to put it.

[Swinging MILF]: I know, we don't want to say, "gate-way sexuality" but yeah, we'll have to come up with a nicer way to put it. But, I think back to maybe, my high school years and I got made fun of a lot. Guys didn't like me. I didn't feel attractive at all. I was chubby...just the typical type of high school girl, nerd experience. I pretended like I didn't care but, I deep down did.

Then when I got to college, I lost so weight and gained a little bit of confidence and guys actually noticed me and that gave me this sense of confidence I had never had before in myself and it made me really want to experience more and actually, I me my husband in college. So, I didn't really have a lot of sexual experiences outside of the two of us. I had some but, not a lot.

So when we got married, we were...I mean, I was his first and he was almost mine. So, we had a great sex life all of our marriage leading up to starting and entering into the lifestyle.

[Angel Donovan]: So, that was six years?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, for six years.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Swinging MILF]: And, what happened was a really close friend of mine, a girlfriend of mine, we went out shopping to a sex store which was something...I was at the time really embarrassed to be there. I didn't want to go to the toy section. I just was like, "Oh, I'll stay over here by the lingerie," and she's a little bit more comfortable with her sexuality and she's like, "Okay well, I'm going over to the sex toys."

So, I'm sneaking a peak at her and I notice that she's being sneaky about what she was buying. She didn't want me to see. Well, I saw it and it was a strapless strap-on toy which is for girl-on-girl play and I'm like, "Wait a minute, she's married with kids. What's this all about?"

So I basically, that day confronted her about it and she told me she's a swinger and my mind was blown away. The only thing I knew about swinging was maybe things I saw in movies which was...it's very misconstrued in movies and I had really big assumptions about it, mainly bad assumptions.

[Angel Donovan]: Right so, how did you notice? Was this one of your good friends or did you realize she was a bit more extroverted or did you see someone who was more open than usual or did you think she was just like one of your other regular friends or whatever you determine?

[Swinging MILF]: No, I always knew...it was never with me but, in her earlier years that she was openly bi-sexual. So, I always knew she was more adventurous than me and that never bothered. I consider myself a very open-minded person whether or not I was actually interested in participating in those types of things was a different story.

So, I never judged her for it or anything like that but, when she had been married for some time, I figured those days were over. You know, that was like her young, fun time. So, we hadn't talked about anything like that for years and then, all of a sudden this happened. So, it came as quite a surprise to me but, I wasn't disappointed in her at all. I was...I couldn't believe how exciting it sounded to me and how intrigued I was.

[Angel Donovan]: Do you think it matters who introduces it to you because, I've had trusted friends over time who would introduce me to topics and I think I take the information a lot more considerately rather than, if I just met some guy in a bar or something and he's like, "Hey Man, swinging is cool."

[Swinging MILF]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: Or you know, whatever it is and I'd be like, "Ah yeah, sure it is." Whatever but, if it's a trusted friend and you already respect them and so on, I think you're more likely to take the information in a different way.

[Swinging MILF]: Oh, absolutely and I think that the fact that I have the outmost respect for her and her marriage and all of those things really helped me kind of trust what she had to say more. I knew that she was being 100% honest with me because, I'm sure it doesn't surprise you at all to know that I had a million questions to ask her and so, she was very open with what...any question I had she answered for me and...

[Angel Donovan]: So, was like a split-second thing for you like, all of a sudden you had all this like, "Wow, I'm actually kind of interested in knowing a lot more about this"?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah well, it's funny because, we had like a 45 minute car ride and I remember it like yesterday and that car ride was just full of me driving her home but like, trying to fit in as many questions as I could about because, I was just so intrigued. Then, I had another car ride home all alone to just think about everything we just talked about and be like, "Did that really just happen?"

And I was heading home to my husband and then, it dawned on me that he has asked me, not begged me but, always in our years of being together prodded at me and joked about the idea of a threesome with one of my close girlfriends and I was always like, "Ah no, no way. That's weird. That would be weird for my friendship with this other girl." You know, he's always like, "Which friend would you play with" and I'm like, "None of them."

Then, I just have this lightbulb idea just come up and I thought, "Wait a minute, what if it's with someone we just met and I don't have this friendship history to worry about jeopardizing?" So, that's exactly what I did is, I went home and first I said, "Oh my gosh. You won't believe what just happened" and I proceeded to tell him everything I had just learned and I made sure to not...I really wanted to see what his reaction would be without me influencing him with what my opinion was and so, I really just came to him with like a "matter of fact" like, "This is what just happened."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that's actually a great way to introduce new ideas to people in general in your sex life.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: You know, just talk about and see how they react.

[Swinging MILF]: Absolutely, I always want to get their genuine reaction instead of the reaction that they think that they want me to hear and his reaction was...he was also really interested and kind of blown away. Then after all of that is when I said, "What do you think about the idea of a threesome if we create a profile on a website and maybe just kind of dip our toes into something like this?" and he was like, "Sign me up." So, the rest is history.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Swinging MILF]: But, it was great.

[Angel Donovan]: What was great also is, I guess you had your friend also to guide you in the process. You could ask her questions.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Like, "Hey, is this the wrong website," or that kind of stuff.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: That's cool.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, it was really cool and she was a great help with all of those questions and that beginning part of it and still is today when we don't play together and we don't attend the same events even. We just think that would be weird. So, we just kind of live separate lives but talk about it.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's good to have someone to talk about it with, yeah.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Excellent so, have you felt things change for you in terms of your sexuality since the swinging started? I mean, you said you had quite an active sex life. Was it quite an open sex life before in terms of the range or the variation and stuff, in terms of stuff like, when you think of a regular couple? I don't know how would you describe it? How were before and have things changed afterwards or is it basically just being you but now it's involving more people and so on?

[Swinging MILF]: Hmmm, that's a great question. So yes, it has definitely evolved and we love the word enhance because, the lifestyle's really enhanced our relationship in many ways in and out of the bedroom and specifically, inside the bedroom, I just feel (and we both talk about this often) that we really have been able to express things that never would have said before. So for example, I have fantasies that I was kind of embarrassed to tell him about but, I would think about it and I would secretly watch porn with it...

[Angel Donovan]: Oh yes, secretly, wow.

[Swinging MILF]: Well, not necessarily secretly but, I didn't know how he'd feel about it but, for some reason now that we are in the swinger lifestyle, it just kind of gives us this freedom to be really true to ourselves and what we want to do and that has helped us in the bedroom because, I feel like I'm more vocal about what I want there and we've learned a lot. Like, I don't know if this is too much information but like, I learned how to find of let go and become a squirter. I'm sorry.

[Angel Donovan]: That's fine. We've talked about squirting before.

[Swinging MILF]: But, just things like that I didn't even know really existed. I just...I kind of did but, I had no clue and so...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: ...meeting people who have taught us things and showed us things has really helped but also just the fact that we have this new sense of comfort helps in the bedroom too.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it sounds like you've raised your level of comfort with expressing what you really want instead of having some kind of layer of inhibition about like, "I don't know like if I should talk about this or not," right? So, that little barrier there, is that because, you think any of these have helped?

Is it because you're in this community now where you keep meeting people who have a higher level, higher standard, if you will like of openness and comfort? So being surrounded by those people, you kind of pick up things from and you kind of take up their lead like...it's just kind of naturally because, they're very relaxed about it and it's more ingrained in your lifestyle so, you become more used to it and then, you kind of go somewhere to move towards and you value...if you value that and you see it. Have you ever had discussions with your husband about this kind of thing.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, I think that we have noticed for some reason all of the people we meet in the lifestyle...because we go to a lot of event where there's a lot of people like a hotel take-over so there's hundreds of people in the lifestyle...

[Angel Donovan]: So what's a hotel takeover?

[Swinging MILF]: A hotel take-over is literally what it sounds like. So, there are no vanilla people...that's what people in the lifestyle call those who are not in it. So, no vanilla people allowed and it's just an entire hotel...

[Angel Donovan]: Wow.

[Swinging MILF]: ...full of swingers. They'll have a dance floor with a DJ, sometimes there will be a live band, most of the time hotels will have the pool area open and so, it's just like this big awesome party and everyone's dressed super sexy. You will see butts and you'll see boobs and it's crazy but, it's a ton of fun and the people we've met there have been just the most wonderful people I've met in my life.

Everybody I meet, for some reason in the lifestyle...and I don't want this to sound like people who aren't in it aren't awesome because, they are too but, for some reason, it just seems like everybody's way more accepting and open-minded of everyone else. So like, your sexual preference, your beliefs, just everything, we are as a community, for the most part, just one of the friendliest groups of people you will ever meet and one of the most open-minded. [23:10]

How many people out there can say, they can have a conversation with people they just met about an orgy and it be fun. It's just something that I've really learned is...like it fulfills something in me, like it's just so much fun to have conversations like that.

[Angel Donovan]: So it sounds like, in general people just have this very level of comfort and when you meet people, how quickly do people start talking about this stuff? Is it literally within the...like can be the first thing they say or is it...? How do conversations go when you met people at these kind of events?

[Swinging MILF]: That's funny that you put it like...it's true. I mean, it could happen within a few minutes. Sometimes, we'll enter into a conversation that's already happening and I'll put my two cents in which, my two cents might be something outrageous but...Typically though, I don't want to scare people away who are interested in it. Really, it's just a lot of fun and we do have normal conversations too.

It's just a little bit more light-hearted. I mean, most of the time, we're having an alcoholic beverage and just trying to relax and kind of...it's like a getaway. It's like almost like one night of being kind of on vacation from life and we don't like to talk about work or politics. We don't want to argue about politics. We just want to have fun and usually fun conversations are about sexy things. So, it does tend to gravitate towards those types of conversations.

[Angel Donovan]: What would be your best experiences so far in the swinging...

[Swinging MILF]: Oh my gosh!

[Angel Donovan]: I mean, if you have to pick one or two or three.

[Swinging MILF]: You know, I have had so many awesome experiences. I will say that one of my favorites because of the fact that it was our very first. And so, I think since it was our first experience, it's just extremely memorable of course.

It was on our six-year wedding anniversary as I mentioned before. We went down a couple of hours from our house to a club at an on-premise club and so, the playing, the sex happens there in rooms. We met this great group of people and they learned that we were brand new and they were so welcoming and they were answering all of our questions and it was just a great time.

It ended in a soft-swap. So, for those listeners who don't know what soft-swapping is, it's basically oral play or less. So, no sexual intercourse, a soft swap orgy.

So, it was like five couples in one room and it started out with all the ladies throwing me on the bed and having their way with me because, I was a lady-virgin, that I was very curious and wanted to know what that's all about. That was really awesome, just that alone because, I had like four women having their way with me and then, once I was satisfied multiple times, the men joined us too and it was just awesome.

I've been to Hedonism in Jamaica for a week-long swinger trip that will always be one of my favorite memories and I hope to turn that into...it would be awesome to turn it into an annual trip and I highly recommend that to anyone who is even just open-minded and not necessarily a swinger because, it's just a great party place. I won the blow-job contest at...

[Angel Donovan]: How did you win a blow job contest?

[Swinging MILF]: Well...

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds like you guys have interesting competitions.

[Swinging MILF]: We do and obviously, no one's ever forced to participate...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: ...as a side-note.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: But no, it was just this awesome beach party and the DJ asks for five women to come sit in the chairs up at the front and I was standing right there when he announced it and I was like, "Hmmm," so I just sat down. Then, they asked for four men to line up with the woman of their choosing and this lovely gentleman, who I could tell had a crush on me all week, jumped at the chance just to enter with me.

It started with the guys licking whipped cream off of the ladies' bodies and then, there was like an applause-vote for which guys should move to the next round and two of them, one was me and another girl and guy moved to the next round. Then, the next round was changing places and we were supposed to lick the whipped cream off the guys and the winner was the guy with the hardest hard on and my guy won. So, it was good group effort, I guess.

[Angel Donovan]: So, I'm guessing that's going to sound quite extreme to a lot of people.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Do you feel like over the two years, you've been through a ladder, kind of slowly expanding over time.

[Swinging MILF]: Yes, I'm glad you asked that because, earlier I realized I had forgotten to mention when you were asking about kind of how my sexual experiences even with my husband have evolved. When I first started, I was so shy. I was very interested and wanted to do everything but, I was like terrified at the same time. Terrified in a good way and I really have taken a 180 with it.

I'm the life of the party when we go out. I am not afraid to talk to anybody and so, that's really helped me just in life. Like, I have grown to be...to have much more courage in life situations when I have to speak up or talk to people or just even talking with you on this interview. I mean, I have no nerves going into this because, this is my comfort zone.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: So...

[Angel Donovan]: So, can you think of like, have there been any experiences on the way that you kind of felt helped you get to this higher comfort level and confidence level?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh yeah, there's been a lot of experiences where things didn't go the way I was hoping. I never want anyone considering the lifestyle to go into it thinking it's all going to be perfect but, they've always been a really great learning experience for me. Last summer, I had (it's easy to count because, you just count every time you go out) eight men in a row have performance issues.

[Angel Donovan]: Oh wow.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: With you?

[Swinging MILF]: With me, yes.

[Angel Donovan]: That's kind of crazy.

[Swinging MILF]: It is.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Swinging MILF]: But you know, when that number, it just keeps growing and it's one after another, I was second-guessing everything. I was second-guessing my looks, my ability in the bedroom, even just being in the lifestyle and here I am watching my husband across the room from me, performing great because, he has no issues with that at all and he doesn't get nervous. A lot of time it's just nerves.

[Angel Donovan]: So in that situation, sometimes if the guy really likes you, you can have that kind of problem. So, it could have actually been that all of those eight guys were really into you.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, actually that's what I was told later by a couple of them was that I actually really intimidated them and then a few other ones, it was because, it was their first time, they were newbies and so, they were just really nervous. One of the times, it was all my fault because, I totally psyched the guy out and I even told him how at that point, it was like number six. I was like...

[Angel Donovan]: Oh yeah.

[Swinging MILF]: ..."It's been six guys that are out before we go to play." Then, I'm like, "Oh no, what have I done?"

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: So, that was number seven and he told me, he was like, "I never have problems. You psyched me out." I'm like, "I'm so sorry."

So basically, what I mean by saying that and sharing that is that I really had to learn a lot from that and now, I have learned to not have any expectations and to really go into things just with an open mind and if I lower my expectations, I tend to have a much better time. I mean, everybody has a better time. So, nobody's perfect and I just need to enjoy the moment as it comes. So...

[Angel Donovan]: Have you had to do any kind of processing as you went through this? There was one uncomfortable situation and so, I guess this is where you can build your confidence and sexual confidence because, you're actually forced to look at things in your life and look at the way that you react to things and get past them.

So, it's putting you in this comfort-challenging situation by being in the lifestyle. You're coming across new people and I don't know. Do people ask you to do new things? How does that work? How do you feel...like maybe get challenged to expand like naturally just because people like, "Hey, we normally do this. We kind of like this. Would you be happy to do that?" Or how does it work like that in terms of...

[Swinging MILF]: You mean like...I just want to make sure we're...I understand so, like new sexual things, correct?

[Angel Donovan]: No, I'm interested in any way. It could be emotionally, it could be you know what you just told us about all these...eight guys is really important. They had performance issues and now you're like, "Oh my God. Has it got something to do with me?" Right? Any of these things are putting us outside of our comfort zone and will change you going forward if you get over those little discomforts and so next time, it's not such a big deal for you.

[Swinging MILF]: Oh okay, yeah. Well, there have been a lot of experiences like emotionally and sexually. My husband and I were in an exclusive relationship for a while which meant that we only played with them and that was where I got to really get into the zone of like trying new things. It helped when you continued to play with a couple and that's where I got into becoming more assertive in the bedroom and knowing what I want and really getting comfortable with girl-on-girl play and being able to be more open with what I need and what I deserve and I'm realizing that basically...

This is kind of swinging in a nutshell for me and for many women is that it has given the sense of pride and self confidence in myself and I think a lot of people looking in from the outside would think it would make me feel like just an object but, I don't at all. It's empowered me and because of that, I feel like I have deeper conversations with people I just meet and I feel like I know what I want more than I ever did before and those are some things that I will forever be grateful to the lifestyle for whether we continue in or whether we stop. I will keep that.

[Angel Donovan]: So, I interviewed a expectations-porn star called Dave Pounder a little while back and he's written books about these things and he's been into the swinging lifestyle for a long time so, it's something we spoke about. I just wanted to run some of his ideas by you because, I think you'll disagree and I'm just interested to hear a different perspectives on this.

[Swinging MILF]: Okay.

[Angel Donovan]: So, one of the things he says is "What I've noticed about the couples is nine times out of ten, it's not likely that the couple just jumped into the lifestyle. The guy nudged the wife, they talked about it for years before they finally went to their first experience and just watched over people having sex." Right?

So, his kind of view was that most of the time...and he went on to say that a lot of the women...if the couple breaks up, whatever the reason, the woman like nine times out of ten, he says, "The woman tends to leave the lifestyle where the guy tends to stay more often," as he's seen over the years.

So, he felt that a lot of women wouldn't go of their own accord and wouldn't stay of their own accord. That was kind of his view. How would you look at if you think about the male and female dynamics inside the swinging community?

[Swinging MILF]: Wow, I kind of disagree. You're right, I don't. Gosh, maybe it's just who I've met so far and just a coincidence but, most of the couples that my husband and I have met, it was the woman's idea and it was my idea as I already told you and I've never really met a couple where the husband was really nudging it.

I also think that that's certainly out there and plenty of couples went into it that way but, I guess maybe just my experiences, I haven't met that many that it's been that way. I will say that I think that the higher success rate will be when it's a couple where the woman really enjoys it and my experience has been that of the two, the men are ones who are the more jealous and insecure over it than the women.

That's what we've experienced, my husband and I. I don't know what else to say about that. I'm surprised but, I can see how he's probably experienced that and maybe that's just that guy's perspective versus the female perspective of it too. You know?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I was thinking as you were talking and it would be interesting just to hear about more experiences and perspective. It's difficult to get an objective view about something...you know, a really objective...like it's not like they've done a load of scientific studies on this or anything.

[Swinging MILF]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: So, it's a little bit different. So, another thing he mentioned is, he felt like if you look through all the websites and it's always about advertising the girl in terms of the pictures and everything else. So, does that kind of dynamic where the girl is the most important thing or it seems like she is the main thing.

[Swinging MILF]: Oh absolutely, that is 100% what it's like. The women are princess. We are put up on a pedestal. It's a show, basically. I mean, I don't want this to come off wrong but, it's like all these husbands or boyfriends, significant others are out there and they get to like show off how gorgeous and beautiful their lady is and the ladies love it.

There is a lot of planning and prep work that goes into a night out in the lifestyle. I have bought costumes and I have a million high heels. It's just this beautiful way of being able to show off a woman's sexuality and make her feel beautiful and if you think about it, a lot of what gets a woman turned on or interested in having sex is that foreplay.

I think having sexy picture of the ladies on the website, it's like that's when foreplay begins with the swinging is like, "Oh, we're interested in you because, you're very sexy," and then, it moves on to, "Let's meet." So, then it's complementing her and how she looks and then so on and so forth.

I hate to make it sound like the guys are just kind of dragged along and there are tag-alongs but, a lot of the lifestyle is about the ladies. Not going to lie.

[Angel Donovan]: I've seen the same thing just in normal websites like www.OkCupid.com. You get polyamorous couples in there and it's always just...they even sometimes look like a girl's profile because, their into the girl first.

So, in terms of dynamics again, are there successful swingers versus unsuccessful swingers. Well first of all, you've kind of put it as an experience and I was listening to your podcast and I heard you...you know, you talk about, for you really it's the experience and sex is one part but, it's the whole experience that really, really makes it for you as you were just saying. It sounds like people have a higher standard for how they get dressed up...

[Swinging MILF]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: ...within this community versus if you go to any club or any other place, would you expect the level to be higher so that effort, that extra effort goes into it, makes it a more special event for everyone?

[Swinging MILF]: It does, it does. It's like getting ready for the best first date of your life every time. Like you are shaving everything and grooming and you want to put your best self out there.

My husband and I, we recorded a podcast together about swinger versus vanilla dates and one bummer of it (and something that's has kind of come to our attention recently) is that our swinger dates are so fun and outrageous and we put so much effort into them that our vanilla dates, as awesome as they are, I probably might not shave my legs that day and I'm going to do my makeup like I do when we're going out to the club. But, he deserves that too. So, it's just hard because, you're really trying to make a good first impression because, you're trying to literally meet someone and see if they'll be interested in you.

[Angel Donovan]: It's kind of like you're trying to seduce someone quickly.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, every time. All I'm coming to is, it's a little bit competitive as well, in terms of...like if you had a room full of...I don't know...in the club, how many people are there on a typical club?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh my gosh, the one we attend, there are typically 600 to 800 people that go.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow, so that's a lot of people.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Is it 50/50 guys and girls or is there...would you put it somewhere else?

[Swinging MILF]: Well, the only people allowed into the club are couples or single females. The one we go to does not allow any single males but, there are plenty of other clubs that do allow that but anyway, that's a whole other realm is the single male realm but...

[Angel Donovan]: So, I'm guessing you've only been...have you only been with couples?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, we only play with couples and that's one of our rules. I certainly fantasize about hooking up with a single guy with my hubby involved but anyway. But yeah so, every couple you meet has their own set of rules that they abide by so, we only hook up with couples. So yeah, at the events, it's typically 50/50, maybe a few more females thrown in the mix.

And the competition, I don't know if you would necessarily call it like a big competition but, I will say that if you see a couple...like this is how the night goes for us. We are checking people out together. So like, we're walking around. We make our rounds and we're like, "Well, what about them, what about them, what about them?" and I'm always like, "No, no, no," because typically, these women are drop-dead gorgeous and a lot of times the guys are, I'm sorry, not taking good care of themselves and somehow with this gorgeous lady. I'm sure they're sweethearts but, a lot of the swinging lifestyle, the first impression is looks and you can't deny that.

So once we find a couple that we kind of both agree on their looks, we say, "Okay, it's time to hone in and hone in now because, nobody's is talking to them." That's where that competitive part of it, I guess you could say because, there have been times where we'd been like, "Hmmmm, they're a maybe over. We'll go talk to them in a few minutes after this song's over." And literally within two minutes, some other couple is already talking to them. So, if you see someone you like, you better make your way over to them. That's the lesson to that story, I guess.

[Angel Donovan]: And then, I guess, after the conversation starts, you feel a vibe, you're just like, "Hey, would you like to...?" How does it go then? How do you make the transition?

[Swinging MILF]: Gosh yeah, it was lots of practice. We weren't very good at it in the beginning but, we really relied on the other couple.

[Angel Donovan]: I think this is an area people would be kind of scared of...

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: ...in that transition. I mean, I know that guys, just when they're going out with girls, this is one of the big areas they have. They're like, you know...they go on even two or three dates and they can't really...

[Swinging MILF]: I know like...

[Angel Donovan]: ...get it physical, basically. That's their...

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: ...big concern. So, I'm guessing it's exactly the same with swingers and, how did it go for you?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah like sealing the deal? Well, I think that one thing couples should do ahead of time is decide who is the more assertive one. Usually, in a couple, one person's quieter and one person talks more. I bet you could guess that I'm the one that does more of the talking and so, it's kind of like my job to initiate the...or to ask or propose the idea of what they think about joining us in our room for a drink.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that's how you do it? You say can...

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: "Do you want to...?" Okay. So, that's when you're in a hotel or is that other rooms in some of the clubs or how does that work?

[Swinging MILF]: Yes at the hotels, it's pretty simple because, we can say, "Hey, I'm all out of my drink. Would you like to join us and come back to our room for a while. We can just talk and it'll be somewhere more quiet." That's after we've probably been talking and dancing with them for over an hour or two.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Swinging MILF]: We don't just meet and five minutes later decide, "Let's do it." It's a gradual, quick but gradual process on a night like that. So, at a hotel we would go to our room. At a club, where it's on premise, meaning the play happens there, that's a little bit trickier.

We prefer hotel take-overs just for the sake that we have a room that's quiet but, if we were to be at a club, we would probably just have to say, "You know what, we really..." just stop and be like, "We really like you guys and we'd love to play with you. Would you like to go and check out and see if there's any rooms open and see where this can go?" Then usually, it is successful.

Before we get to that point, we typically in the conversation find out kind of what type of swinging couple they are, whether they are a full-intercourse-swapping couple or soft or there's some couples where only the will ladies play together and the guys watch.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: I mean...

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, it sounds... you threw a little acronyms and stuff out there like soft play and stuff. Is that what people actually say or is it more like...it's more like...you know, it's just more like a little conversation to kind of figure out where people are at or do you actually label yourselves like, "I'm a..."?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh well, most of those swinger websites out there, you mark a box that will either say, "I'm full, soft or..." It's kind of the lingo in the lifestyle. Most people know unless you're brand new and have no idea but, most people know. Like if we tell a couple...we usually say, we'll say, "Just so you know, we are a full-swap couple..."

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Swinging MILF]: "...and that is definitely our preference. We really like you guys. If you'd like to play with us, we would...I think it would be a lot of fun." Then, we would need to hear from them and typically, they'll say, "Great well, we are too," and that's what we're hoping for.

Sometimes they say, "Oh well, you know, we only, blah, blah, blah," and there's nothing wrong with whatever they do but, our preference is full-swap. Honestly, we have said, "Well, it was nice to meet you. Have a great time," and we move on sometimes because...

[Angel Donovan]: ...because they have a different...

[Swinging MILF]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: ...model. Yeah, they have a soft-swap or...

[Swinging MILF]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: Cool. Alright so, it does sound like these labels you get to know and you get to figure out and you know and you're a couple and you have to feel out like what's right for you.

I also noticed that you were the one who had...we'll say the higher standards but, it's just more of a stringent standards in terms of which couples you're going to get with in the room. So, that can of puts it naturally in your...it makes you the natural leader because, you're the one who's going to have the smaller decision area, put it that way. So, it sounds like it works well with you guys like that and would you say as a normal dynamic is it the women or is it just like specific to you guys?

[Swinging MILF]: For the woman to be the one...

[Angel Donovan]: ...the pickier. We'll say pickier.

[Swinging MILF]: Oh, the pickier...

[Angel Donovan]: I don't know how you want to put it. I don't want to make you sound negative or anything.

[Swinging MILF]: No, no. You're right. No, it's typically the woman's who's making the final call because...and I'm sure most men can agree that men are horny and most women, unless they're super unattractive, most women, they are intrigued by...I mean...

I feel like this is how it works in my opinion with men is they kind of have a fantasy to experience all shapes and sizes and ethnicity and like everything, hair color, you name it. They're like, "Oooo, I have a fantasy about a red head. I have a fantasy about a Latino woman. I have a fantasy about a big butt. I have a fantasy about little breast and big breasts," and just like everything.

They want to experience it all and for a woman, it's more about, "Can you make me laugh? Do you have a cute smile? Do you flirt with me? Do you make me feel good?" So, the woman really needs to feel comfortable in that aspect in order for it all to work. So, we definitely make the final call most of the time.

[Angel Donovan]: Excellent, excellent. So, I just want to come back just quickly to the successful...I think you mentioned this...I was listening to it on one of your interviews. You said...you have successful night or some people can work out well. I guess, you hook up with someone who you feel comfortable or it's going to work well on a successful night

Because, I was thinking, like some people, you might be interested in this, they're like, "We don't feel like the sexiest couple in the world. If we go to these events, are we going to be left sitting in the corner kind of like when I was 13 and like...putting you in high school and I was at the school dance and I was the one sitting in the corner of the room at the end of the night and it wasn't really...not fun at all." So, I just wanted to talk about that fear a bit and has that got a reality to it or...?

[Swinging MILF]: Yes, it does and I will say that in the beginning, we were the ones shy and sitting at a table and not being social at all and we kind of just lucked out a couple of those times and people approached us which was great but, that's not necessarily...we recognize that that was very rare. If you're going into this lifestyle, you really need to just let your guard and not be afraid to talk to people.

I have played with couples that, honestly, my first glance, I may not have necessarily said, "Let's go find out what they're all about," but then, they approached us and we started talking and our personalities really clicked. Then I was like, "Oh, like I like them." So, that's one of the biggest pieces of advice I can give somebody new is to just really be courageous, have no fear, get out there, don't sit down the whole time and be shy but, if it's your first night out and you're just wanting to watch, maybe that is the better thing to do so that you're not intimidated or overwhelmed so...

[Angel Donovan]: You said that you kind of lucked out. I think that often happens, you'll luck on once or twice, you don't have to count on it but, it definitely helps you get into a new community or something like that. I recently explored this thing called "orgasmic meditation". I don't know if you've heard of it before.

Basically, I kind of lucked out the first time because, the first girl I went with, she was really cool. She could laugh about it. I asked lots of stupid questions and she just thought it was funny. So, it also depends on the communities you go with. It sounds like swingers in general are a kind bunch, respectful and they're not going to make fun of you. So, it's not quite like the high school where a lot of kids were brats quite honestly, you know and we used to pick on each other.

[Swinging MILF]: No, we're all grown-ups now. I got out of my way to compliment as many people as I can because, it just feels good. I love being complimented and that's one part of the lifestyle that I think so many women going into it don't realize how great that part of it is.

Like, that's almost (and this is going to sound a little vain almost) one of my favorite things of having a night out is spending all that time to get ready and then, just people noticing me and complimenting me and making me feel so good about myself and it just really boosts my self-confidence and just makes me happy and that's what it's all about. It's just having a really awesome experience with like-minded people who we all enjoy each other's company and we all feel comfortable around each other. You will see all shapes and sizes when you go out and that's the cool part about it too is that, I love seeing someone who may not have a lot of self confidence in their body had they not entered the lifestyle all of a sudden exude tons of confidence in their body and feel beautiful.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, what other fears people might have about this? Are there things like fears that would get in the way or inhibitions that would get in the way of even trying this even if it's something that they're interested in or, it could be anything in the process of starting to go through it? What kind of things you think people could come up against when they're into this?

[Swinging MILF]: I think to sum up, fears most of the time is about jealousy. If you are the type of couple that gets jealous if like your husband or your wife just even smiles or flirts with another person then, swinging is not going to work for you. If you have a beautiful wife or girlfriend and men love looking at her and flirting with her or paying attention to her outside of the lifestyle just in a vanilla setting and you hate that, those are the warning signs. "Warning, do not become a swinger."

So, jealousy is a huge fear that people probably had. I was afraid of it and I'm not going to lie, I've had plenty of jealous moments. My husband has had jealous moments too but actually, something...it works for us because, the excitement and the fun and the trust between is so great that those itty bitty moments we don't even really think about but, everybody's different and so, my biggest piece of advice is to really just have your jealousy in check and know where you are with that and then...

[Angel Donovan]: So, what kind of rules to make sure that trust stays intact and you just keep the experience healthy?

[Swinging MILF]: Just to make sure you're 100% honest and my husband and I actually have like monthly if not more than that check-ins with each where we have like a really heart-to-heart conversation about where we are in the lifestyle like, "How are we feeling about things?" We always talk about our experience from a party or whatever a day after like, if something happens, we talk it over, say what we liked, was there anything we would change about our behavior or anything like that.

So, communication is just probably my number one recommendation and then, making sure that no means no. So like, if I say no to somebody or he says no to somebody, we need to respect each other's opinion on that and just not proceed with whatever we're wanting to happen.

[Angel Donovan]: Or not push, or not push each other?

[Swinging MILF]: Right, right, no pushing or pressuring, no peer pressure. The other rule that we have is 100% of the time we need to use protection but, that's a no-brainer to us, although to some people...

[Angel Donovan]: What does protection mean?

[Swinging MILF]: Condoms.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay just asking because, people do different things.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, condoms and we get tested annually for STD, a full panel test and just to make sure we stay clean and you're leading a promiscuous lifestyle.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Swinging MILF]: And, and...

[Angel Donovan]: I don't know if you'd be comfortable with showing this but, how many sexual partners have you had in the last two years in this lifestyle?

[Swinging MILF]: Is it bad that I've lost count? I know that sounds really...

[Angel Donovan]: Well no, that tells something. That's some kind of indicator.

[Swinging MILF]: I guess if I had to guess... I mean at Hedo alone it was like six or seven, at Hedonism. So I guess, if I had to guess, I'd say like 20 to 30.

[Angel Donovan]: Over two years? That's not extreme. That doesn't sound extreme to me.

[Swinging MILF]: No and the reason is because, the first year of it, we were exclusive with a couple.

[Angel Donovan]: Oh right, yeah.

[Swinging MILF]: It didn't play outside the four of us for quite a while. So really, that's like only a year's worth. So...

[Angel Donovan]: And as you say, it's couple-on-couple so, you're husband's the same...

[Swinging MILF]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: Or is it?

[Swinging MILF]: Yep.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, yeah. Yeah, I thought the exclusive-couple thing was a good introduction as you said because, it's the same with one-night-stands versus any type of relationship you've had. If you meet the person a couple of times or even more, the sex is going to get a lot more comfortable and you're going to be doing more things. So, it sounded like a good thing to do in the start, when you get into it.

[Swinging MILF]: It is. It worked for us however, I do warn people that the more that you play with people, the more you'll develop feelings.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: And, you've got to be really careful with that and again, it worked for us but, as far as those other couples out there who are worried about jealousy, that's really when jealousy going to kick in big time. That's kind of another rule, an unspoken rule, so to speak between my husband and I is that we tend to not want to play with the same couple two times in a row like, go back and just go right back to them because, we don't want to lead them on and make them think anything more than what we think it is and also, we don't want to get too attached.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah sure. Do you see any drama around that kind of thing where...because, there was famous Kinsey movie about Kinsey the researcher and in that movie, (I don't know if it actually happened in real life) some of the people in the study, they were sleeping with each other as demonstrations but, one couple started with each other. Then, they ended up divorcing both couples and causing some drama within the study. So you know, I could see how that could happen easy in a swinger lifestyle as well.

[Swinging MILF]: Oh yeah, there's drama and the thing is, is when I say that there's always drama everywhere in life. There's drama in monogamous relationship with jealousy or lying or cheating. So, it's just kind of a different kind of drama. You'll see it. Luckily, I haven't experienced a whole heck of a lot of it. Thank goodness and I think that it's because I've tried really hard to be really conscious of it and to... again, I've witnessed it unfortunately and it's not pretty when it happens and usually, it's because of jealousy or miscommunication of some sort.

[Angel Donovan]: Well so, the other thing you get up to is the cam modeling which I also wanted to touch on and obviously, that seems to be something that came after the swinging?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Would you say you became comfortable with that because of the swinging? If you hadn't done swinging before, would you have done the cam modeling?

[Swinging MILF]: I never even thought of it. My first impression of it...the only thing I knew about it like I saw...I'm on www.MyFreeCams.com but, there are other sites like www.LiveJasmine.com. You know, you get like pop-ups all the time.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah I actually...could you just explain to people what is cam modeling?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah so cam modeling, it's basically, it's a live feed where it's typically a man or a woman or a couple. It's on a specific website and there's tons of websites out there of that have it and basically, they perform usually sexual acts of some kind. It's typically like masturbation. If it's couples, they are possibly having sex or having oral play in front of the camera.

And, it's kind of like being in a chat room (back to our AOL days of being in chat rooms). So, I have people come into my chat room, they find me and they talk to me. So, I'm speaking to them but, they're typing to me. So, I've kind of made like friends this way. It starts out with them coming and finding me because, I have like tag lines. Like so, if you come...basically, if you went to www.MyFreeCams.com, you could search for things you're interested in.

[Angel Donovan]: What would be examples? What do people search for?

[Swinging MILF]: Some examples of what I have is I say, "MILF". People like moms. It's like a thing. So, I have "MILF", I have "swinger". They think that part of it's kind of cool. I have "curvy", "brown eyes." You know, I have a description of my physical self and also, I talk about what I do. I have "squirter", I have "fucking machine" because, I use one of those.

[Angel Donovan]: What is a fucking machine?

[Swinging MILF]: Well, it's machine that has a dildo attached to it with a dial for speed and you literally are in control of this machine that...it fucks you. It's like...

[Angel Donovan]: Wow.

[Swinging MILF]: ...it's got a motor on it and everything and it...

[Angel Donovan]: Are there lots of those around? I haven't heard of that thing before.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, I don't know if there's lots of them around. They're pretty expensive but, they do exist and you can order them online and I was terrified when it was delivered that the delivery man knew what he was bringing me but, anyway...and it's kind of like my "shtick", like it's my thing. Since they're a little pricier, luckily it was a gift to me thank you but anyways, since they're a little bit pricier, not a lot of models on line have them. So, I feel like that's kind of given me a leg up and also, a lot of cam models do is they'll make videos that you can purchase and download for future reference which, I have those too.

But anyway, you kind of put on a show as a cam model and you ask for money and on my site, it's in the form of tokens. Basically, how it works is the website makes 50% of what I get tipped. So, I basically make .50 per token that I receive.

[Angel Donovan]: How many times do you do this a week and how much do you make?

[Swinging MILF]: Well, I make my own hours. Typically, when I do cam, I only cam for an hour or two and I'll make on average about $100 when I do it which is pretty easy money because, I'm just masturbating and flirting.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. So, what are your motivations? Is it for money or is it for the experience or what is interesting to you about it?

[Swinging MILF]: The motivation used to be up until my trip was to pay for my trip to Hedonism.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, which is a big swinger event, right?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, yeah, I went with an actual group that goes, a group of swingers. So, guys and ladies really love the idea of helping me pay for my swinger trip. Now, it's more for just going towards the bills, paying for taxes and the mortgage.

[Angel Donovan]: So, are there any things that have annoyed you about it or made you uncomfortable or other behaviors of some of the men? Are there patterns which you'd find negative versus some of the positive? Things like, I don't know if the guys at home are using these services. Are there things which really make it a bad experience for you and like, I don't know? Could you talk a little bit about that side of it?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, I've had really bad experiences of...unfortunate because, a lot of women in particular can be a little bit more vulnerable and I'm really gullible. So, I've had a couple instances of a guy promising the world basically, and he's like, "I have found you! I've been looking for someone just like you for so long." They give you this whole long story and they...

[Angel Donovan]: This is through chat, right?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah well then, they beg you to Skype with them which...

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[Swinging MILF]: ...you know, you're not making any money when you're on Skype. You're just talking and so, I've had a lot of learning experiences because, then those just turn into being a scam. I mean, I never give them any of my information. I don't pay them anything but, it's a waste of my time and it ends up poorly.

But, the ones that really hurt are guys will deliberately come in your room and they get off by being really rude and mean and demeaning and luckily, there's a way I can instantly block them. Early on, that would really hurt my feelings especially because, one thing I haven't mentioned is when I entered the lifestyle and cam modeling, I was a lot bigger and so my self-confidence a little lower and I had just had a baby. I mean, my baby was like five months old.

So, I still had fresh stretch marks and just didn't feel real good about myself and these guys would come in my room and say mean things and it really sucked but, the good news was I would have like 90 other guys in there think I was beautiful and say, "That guy's a jerk. Just block him. Don't listen to him." So, that was nice.

That's one reason why cam modeling and being on Twitter and being a swinger has really helped my self-confidence is I lost a lot of weight through the last two years and as I lost weight and was part of this, it just kind of developed into this great sense of self confidence. Only other thing I'd say about kind of the weirdos out there on the cam sites is there's a lot of strange requests that I won't do.

[Angel Donovan]: What is your view...I honestly don't know anything about this. I didn't even know this world existed and probably a few months ago when...I think it's getting more popular because, I see more ads on [inaudible] sites and wherever.

[Swinging MILF]: It is more popular.

[Angel Donovan]: It seems to be replacing...am I right...it's replacing porn because, they're not making enough money on porn?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, it really is. I mean, the money really is in cam modeling. I guess there's something about like having someone and interacting with them. Like, they like that but, a lot of the strange requests have been kind of fetishes like bodily fluids or that kind of thing or like them asking me to bottle up my pee and mail it to them and stuff like that.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow.

[Swinging MILF]: And I'm like, "Yeah, no I'm not going to do that."

[Angel Donovan]: That's pretty insane.

[Swinging MILF]: Yes and sometimes, I'll be asked like for me to call them...for them, since I'm a MILF, their fantasy is they'll call me Mommy and me call them like son or something. I'm like, "Nope, don't do that either. Sorry. I talk dirty in the bedroom but, not like that," and that's fine, I have nothing against that. It's just not my thing.

[Angel Donovan]: So, it sounds like the average guy on these sites has higher...has more fetishes, has a bit more extreme sexuality, a lot more?

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: A lot of the time, okay. What do you think it in it for the guy apart from getting off? Why do guys go to these sites because, you said it was with some of them, you've become friends or have relationships?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh yeah and a lot of them have become my friends. There's a way that they can be notified when I'm going come back on. So, they'll get an email or whatever that says, "Oh, Swinging MILF is on" and then, all of a sudden they'll show up in my room. I'm like, "Hey So-and-So, nice to see you again." We just have like conversations or they'll take me into a private chat where you have to pay more money to do.

So, they can be one-on-one and kind of get to know me a little bit better and I never give out my personal information but, I think something that they really like about me particularly is I'm a very genuine person and I'm not full of crap. So, they'll ask me questions and I honestly answer them and I think they really like that. Like I'm very honest about things and they're very intrigued about my lifestyle.

[Angel Donovan]: How do the guys strike you? I mean like, are they lonely? What's their...why are they on these sites?

[Swinging MILF]: A lot of them probably are lonely. There are guys that maybe lost a significant other or they are divorced or they're in a marriage that isn't fulfilling in some way for them and so they come see me instead. I feel bad but, a lot of times they're like asking me for advice on how to like spark things up in their marriage.

[Angel Donovan]: That's interesting.

[Swinging MILF]: It's just really cool. So, it's not like they're lying to me. They're very open with me about like why they're there to see me which is kind of cool and then, when I ask them to come follow me on Twitter, we can have more conversations there via Twitter. They'll comment on my pictures and I just get to know a few of the guys and I can tell. I can weed them out. I kind of weed out the good from the bad.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Swinging MILF]: There’s a few guys out there that like really actually like care about me and some people might say, "Oh, they're just pretending to care about you," but I really think that they do which is kind of nice.

[Angel Donovan]: Cool. Okay, let's round off with a few more quick-fire questions.

[Swinging MILF]: Okay.

[Angel Donovan]: What are the best ways for people to connect with you and learn more about you, swinging and all of this stuff.

[Swinging MILF]: Great question. Well, I have a website. You can go to www.TheSwingingMILF.com and when you go there, you can contact me via my email. My email is [email protected] or, I feel like most people go on Twitter these days. So, I'm on Twitter. I am always...that's...it alerts my phone. So, if you really want to get me just go on Twitter and tweet to me and my Twitter is @Swinging_MILF and you'll find me there. Those are the best ways to find me.

[Angel Donovan]: Cool and then on iTunes, I guess your podcast is...like if you just search for "Swinging MILF"...

[Swinging MILF]: Yep.

[Angel Donovan]:...they'll find it right away.

[Swinging MILF]: Yep, just search for "The Swinging MILF" and also my podcasts are on my website too if for some reason you have trouble searching but, you should find me.

[Angel Donovan]: Cool.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Is there anyone beside yourself you think has good advice or insights into dating, sex and relationships? Anyone you've come across or...?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh yeah, I mean there's a lot of other swinger podcasts out there. I really enjoy The Curious Couple, Average Swingers, Life on the Swing Set, Hidden Swing, there's a lot. I mean, I could go on and on. There's a lot of swinger podcasts.

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds it's a lot of them.

[Swinging MILF]: It's an interesting topic and people love hearing about it. So, there's a lot of podcasts if you just...I think you could probably just search for like "swinger podcasts". Actually, you interviewed her and I've really grown to enjoy her is the Cunning Minx from www.PolyWeekly.com. I really like her!

So, I'd recommend going on to www.PolyWeekly.com. I know poly is a little bit different than swinger but, I can of dive into both of those realms so, I've benefited from those. I think that the best advice I can give is to just have no fear and go to an event and just meet people live and don't be afraid to ask them questions there.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Swinging MILF]: We're not going to pressure you into having sex with us. I promise.

[Angel Donovan]: Exactly, again it sounds like a very respectful mature community so...

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, yeah absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: What would be your top three recommendations for guys just to improve their dating, sex and relationship life in general?

[Swinging MILF]: Oh gosh, Okay. This is my personal opinion but, I would say that you should really ask. Don't be afraid. If you are already dating a woman...is that kind of the advice you want...for someone already dating or like...?

[Angel Donovan]: No, no I would say for someone starting from scratch.

[Swinging MILF]: [Inaudible]

[Angel Donovan]: Single, 25-year old, he hasn't had a girlfriend yet and he's really not sure how to get one.

[Swinging MILF]: Oh...

[Angel Donovan]: Starting from scratch.

[Swinging MILF]: Starting from scratch. Wow, that seems like so long ago for me so, let me try this. Okay, the best advice that I could give would probably just be to stop being so shy. If you're 25 and you're starting from scratch, maybe you haven't dated much, that doesn't mean that women don't like you. It really means that you're probably too much of a gentleman and we love that.

Don't worry but, I think a lot of times it's those shy guys that mean well and we want you the most and you just don't know it. So, just got out on a limb and take a chance and talk to people, approach a woman, start complimenting a woman every day. Just walk up to a woman that you think looks great and give her a genuine compliment and that will go a long way.

You just never know when you might meet someone that could change your life and if you don't have the courage to do so then, you'll always wonder. So, just try to have more courage. That's something that's really changed in myself is that I have more courage and it's made my life better. I don't really know what else to say.

Don't be afraid to try new things. Not necessarily swinging but, if you try new things, it puts you in new environments and maybe, gets you more involved with new people and it might open up the opportunity to meet somebody new too that way.

[Angel Donovan]: You're trying to count aren't you? You're like, "Have I done three?"

[Swinging MILF]: I'm like, "Is that only two? Can we wrap?"

[Angel Donovan]: That's fine. That's all good. I think that was quite inspiring. I think that's important stuff especially, the missed opportunity thing. That's kind of what got me here.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I missed one opportunity. I was on a night bus one night. I was talking to this beautiful Spanish girl with green eyes and this was when I was 19 or something. We had an amazing conversation for a couple of hours and then, I got off the bus and I didn't ask for her number or anything and she looked at me like, "What the fuck?" through the window.

[Swinging MILF]: Ahhh.

[Angel Donovan]: And, that was the last time I ever did that.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I was fixed afterwards because, I missed that nice little opportunity there. So, I think that's a good point you made.

[Swinging MILF]: Yeah, no regrets. Don't have regrets. Yeah, absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, well thanks so much for your time. I had a lot of fun today.

[Swinging MILF]: Thank you Angel. I appreciate it and I look forward to hearing everything when it comes out.