Ep. 4 How to Find the Truth About Women with Rob Judge

[Angel Donovan]: Hey, this is Angel Donovan from Dating Skills Review and today we have Rob Judge from Date Hotter Girls. Rob Judge works with Zack Bauer, his partner at Date Hotter Girls, and they’ve recently released a book called The Four Elements of Game, which has really hit the market very well. It’s selling and it’s very popular, and it only came out in March 2010. I’ve read it and reviewed it myself and it’s an extremely refreshing look at dating advice and definitely highly recommended. So hey Rob, it’s great to have you here.

[Rob Judge]: Thank you, Angel. Thanks for having me. I’m really, really excited to be here.

[Angel Donovan]: Awesome. Can you just give me a quick bit of background from how you got into dating advice, what kind your dating lifestyle was before and what it’s like now? Give our users a bit of a background on you.

[Rob Judge]: Sure. Where I came from was, you know, a lot of guys in the industry have like the total horror story where they totally suck, and that wasn’t really exactly where I came from. When I hit 18 I met my girlfriend of five years, and I dated one girl all through college. And the relationship was great at the time, but I really was too nice, I didn’t really understand attraction or a passionate relationship, and that relationship ended with the infamous “let's just be friends.”

And after that I kind of realized I had no idea what I was doing to or how I would meet my next girlfriend, and I kind of figured there had to be a way to kind of get better at meeting girls, so I started reading dating advice and going out and applying it. And I did it kind of zealously because I really didn’t have a choice, you know, sort of like in terms of my social circle, I didn’t really know how I was going to meet girls. I didn’t know if I was going to try online dating. I really had no idea.

So I really got fascinated with the idea that you could learn how to cold approach a woman effectively and get her number and get her on a date and, you know, make her your girlfriend or whatever kind of relationship you want to have with these women on the street or women in a bar. I thought that was so cool. So that's kind of like my origins of how I got into this.

[Angel Donovan]: And how long has it taken you to get good at this and how has your dating lifestyle changed?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, it’s funny, it took me about six months to get where I could go from a cold approach to having sex with a girl for the first time. So that's about six months. But obviously, you know, a lot of guys think, “Oh, once you get to that point, everything’s easy from there,” but really, I didn’t really feel confident with my skills until about two years of studying this, going out sometimes, you know, five, six dates a week, going out with Zack.

And I would say the culmination of my process was a weekend in Vegas where I saw a girl who I thought was absolutely stunning, like gorgeous. And we were at this really high-end club, and I remember walking up to her and just feeling completely confident that I knew exactly what I was going to do to attract that girl. And that night ended really, really well.

And I guess that was the point when I realized that that’s really kind of my dating skills, where I’d started from when I was like too afraid to even cold approach a girl and had massive anxiety and real like nice-guy tendencies, to that point in Vegas two years later where I was able to see my dream girl and just walk up to her totally confident and get her. So that took like two years, and then, since that point, it’s been two years since that night in Vegas, so not only now have I felt like completely confident in terms of like skills, where I’m at now, but also in that two years I’ve also learned how to really explain it well and how to teach it and how to write about it. So for me, I’ve been in the whole dating advice niche I would say about four, four-and-a-half years.

[Angel Donovan]: That's great, man. So, four-and-a-half years. The one thing I found about your book when I read it was I found it kind of inspirational. I’ve been around a long time, since 2001, nine years, so the deal of going out and meeting women has worn off over time and it’s not such a big deal. But I tell you what, when I read your book, afterwards I felt really inspired and motivated to go out and have some more fun. And that's because your book really has a very fun element to it and it really conveys the fun elements, what you’re doing, and I think that helps people to stop approaching that in a negative way because you made it seem like very much fun. Is that something you try to do on purpose?

[Rob Judge]: Oh, I appreciate that. Absolutely. That's actually one of the main themes of the book, was…you know, Zack and I don’t really look at pickup and dating skills as like something that you’re going to cultivate and it’s like something you’re going to turn on and off, where you act like a regular guy for a half a day and then you go out to the club and all of a sudden you switch on your pickup persona or whatever.

Instead, the way Zack and I look at dating and attraction is it should be like a reflex, that it should be something that's completely normal to you, that just is an expression of your masculinity as an expression of your personality. And that should be fun to you, like it shouldn’t be this epic process. It shouldn’t be something that you dread or even that you need alcohol or your wing men to kind of motivate you to do this. This should be something that should be completely fun to you and awesome. I mean, what guy doesn’t love hot women?

And that's ultimately what we wanted to get across in the book, to connect guys with just what you said, like that natural inspiration to just want to meet these girls. There are some amazing women out there just walking around, waiting to meet cool guys. And I hope that every guy who reads my book realizes that he could be that cool guy that girl is going to meet that day.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it’s totally possible and you must see that with so many. When a student comes to one of your bootcamps, what would you say like is the biggest thing he walks away with in terms of a change of mindset and a change in what he's doing and things he's doing…or what’s the common thing that they walk away with?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, I guess what I’ve seen the most, I’ve seen a lot of guys come in who are really nice guys, really, really respect women, and you know that's great. That's like rule number one in terms of like dating advice. But when that becomes problematic is a lot of guys think that, you know, they let the woman lead the interaction, and that's actually detrimental for attraction.

So one of the first things Zack and I try to get across to our students is that is that as a man you need to lead the interaction. Just like you have to walk up and approach her, you have to make sure that the conversation stays fun, it stays on track, it stays passionate and sexual. A lot of times women sometimes will start talking about like a boring topic and will lead the conversation totally off, you know, astray and away from this fun, flirty vibe, and then the woman will get bored and she’ll walk away and blame the guy, and it’s unfortunate.

And that's one thing that our students are always amazed at, is that when Zack and I get guys to act a little edgier a little more aggressive, a little bit outside their comfort zone of what they thought they could do like in terms of with the girl they just met, and they go and do this and they kind of see for themselves that not only can they do it, but the girl actually is waiting for them to do this. And that includes being physical with her, like right off…like the minute you approach her you start touching her. You can hold her hand. You can put your arm around her. It means that you can kiss her very early on in the interaction.

And the whole timeline that guys have in their head from when they approached the girl to when they get a phone number or when they go home with her or whatever, that timeline is much shorter than most guys realize. And I think that that's one of the biggest things that guys take from our live training program, is that when they go home or when they apply what they learned we can program to their regular lives, they know that what they used to think was the timeline for an interaction is actually much shorter.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, well, that's actually a really key point for a lot of guys I think you bring up there because a lot of guys do string it out, especially guys who’ve never looked at dating advice before, and it can go over like two, three, four dates sometimes. And I know this because I have female friends these days and they are constantly in this situation. And having been around dating advice for so many years, I’m just blown away every time I kind of get that that's what normal people do, right? And you know what? The girl’s always like, “What’s he doing? Isn’t he interested? Is he interested?” And she’s kind of confused by the whole situation and she’s wondering why it’s not going anywhere.

And one of my female friends would tell me about like, she’s got like several guys where it’s been going on for months like this. She’ll see them from time to time, but it’s always like, “What’s going on? Does he really like me?” And what guys do there is they actually sabotage themselves because it only takes a little while for the window of opportunity to close. First of all, she’s interested, she’s attracted, and then a few days down the line, a little bit longer, and he's kind of blown it for himself by not escalating, and that's something that I really found you guys emphasize in your book.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that's because the whole first section is on drive, and like I said before, I think that that's the most important element a lot of these guys are lacking. I mean, every guy obviously is approaching girls because they’re attracted to them, and every guy, if you get him alone, he’ll admit yeah, he wanted to have sex with the girl, but a lot of guys are really ashamed to admit that not only to the girl but to themselves when they’re talking to the girl, and they do all these things to avoid it and make a little song and dance about it…and they think that they’re hiding their true intentions because the girl will get turned off if they know what’s really on this guy’s mind. But the truth is that if they were just shameless about it and they were upfront with like why they’re talking to her and what they’re trying to do, like you said, most girls want to hear that and they want to hear that out of a guy because it demonstrates confidence and it demonstrates that he's okay with himself and the feelings that he's having. He's emotionally transparent. So it actually leads to more trust and more attraction.

And you know, again, it’s almost like this glass wall or glass ceiling that guys need to break through. They have to realize that feeling sexual attraction for a woman is completely natural and it’s attractive to women, so there's no reason to hide it or to like pretend like it’s not going on with these platonic dates. Like, fuck that. Just go out and really put it on the line, and you’ll be surprised at how well that's received by women.

[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, and I think the point behind that is really that a girl gets more turned on by knowing that you like her. She can get turned on if she knows that you like her, but if she doesn’t know it because you’re not giving the right signals because you’re not pushing things forward, then she kind of gets confused and she in a way starts losing attraction for you because she just doesn’t know what’s up, right? So she can get distracted by other guys where it’s clearer.

[Rob Judge]: Absolutely. And another thing too, there’s this thing I talk about a lot, especially with students who come on program, is the most important aspect of an interaction with a woman isn’t necessarily that like she’s having the best time or you’re having the greatest conversation. It’s, is she feeling emotion? That's always what guys should be after themselves. Is this woman feeling emotions?

And you know what’s funny, is even if it’s a negative emotion, that's okay too because as long as a woman is feeling a range of emotions, and ideally they should be positive, but I’m saying that sometimes women will get upset or will get angry or will get jealous, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Any kind of emotion you can make a woman feel is going to increase your attraction, and the truth is that if you come on strong and you are very upfront about your desire for her, that's going to elicit a lot of emotions in her. She’s going to get excited. She’s going to feel a lot of different things, and that's great.

Like if you just sit there and you just kind of let her lead the interaction and you pretend like you’re not really attracted to her or you do this stuff to mask that attraction you have for her, you’re kind of blunting those emotions you’d be making her feel, and that's so detrimental to attraction. So, it’s just so important that guys really focus on not speaking to women necessary logically or speaking to them in a way that they would speak to their friends, but instead, when you communicate with women, you should try to be hitting them on an emotional level to get her feeling…

And again, like I said, ideally positive emotions, you know, if she’s laughing, if she’s happy, if she’s excited, but also it’s better that she’s angry at you or upset at you rather than feel nothing at all because as long as she’s feeling emotions her attraction for you is going to grow.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. No, that's totally, totally true. You know, you were just talking about this whole escalation thing, I think you had a term in the first chapter of the book, was drive or slap? Was that the term you used?

[Rob Judge]: I’m sorry, drive what?

[Angel Donovan]: Is it drive or slap?

[Rob Judge]: Oh, the man slap where you slap your friend in the face if he's acting like an idiot.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. I found that hilarious. What I took away from that was like if you weren’t doing things right by escalating things with a girl, doing these things we’ve just been talking about, either you or Zack would slap each other on the head to prove a point.

[Rob Judge]: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it was funny, that actually happened this night that we were out. You know, it’s just when we were kind of really putting the pieces together, and actually it was funny because before this Zack and I…everything I’m talking about about guys not being upfront and all this other stuff, Zack and I, the reason I know that so well is because I was that guy.

You know, Zack and I used to go out and we used to like tell girls we were gay or like say ridiculous stuff to sort of hide our true desire for women, and you know, we got girls to laugh or talk to us but we weren’t creating any real attraction with these women. So Zack and I decided that we were going to change it and that we were going to go out and we were going to start really being very aggressive with our attraction to women, that we were going to tell them like, “Hey, I think you’re hot.” We were going to like put our arms around them. We were going to try to kiss them very early in the interaction. And you know, we were doing this just to see if it worked.

And once we started seeing that yes, this is definitely working, you know, there was still that kind of disconnect between knowing in my head that it worked but actually having the balls to do it was tough. And I know that that's really tough for a lot of guys to go out and go against everything that people have told you your entire life. Like I know my mom raised me to be a nice little gentleman and to respect women, and I do, so that's why it was so hard for me to just walk up and like put my arm around a girl and like, “Hey, you’re adorable. I want to come over and meet you. What’s up?” I thought that that was rude.

So kind of just to motivate us to do that, Zack and I would just watch each other approach girls, and if one of us, you know, if I was watching Zack and he wasn't putting his arm around the girl, taking her by the hand, walking around the venue, kissing her, if enough time went by, which was usually like 30 seconds, I could just walk up and slap him in the face to remind him, “Hey man, you’re talking to a hot girl. Get in touch with that drive and get in touch with that attraction you feel for her.”

[Angel Donovan]: How would the girls react to this when you’re talking to a girl and all of a sudden you get a slap in the face?

[Rob Judge]: It’s so funny, some girls thought it was hilarious, like they would just start cracking up and they thought it was so funny we were doing this. And the other reaction we got a lot was girls wouldn’t even really notice. They would just kind of see it and they just wouldn’t think anything of it. So it’s really funny, like the man slap, while a lot of guys might think, “Oh, the girls will just think we’re idiots,” believe it or not, it’ll actually help your interaction. Girls will either find it funny or they just won’t even notice.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, exactly, and because, you know, we go back to kind of like where we started with all this, because it’s about fun. And what struck me about that part you wrote in the book was you could see that you and Zack were just having a real blast with that. You’d play a game between you’ve and it just made your night, right? As opposed to the guys who will go out to meet girls, which is most of the male population, they’ll kind of stand around and they’re constantly thinking about meeting girls, not doing anything about it, and really not having a good time of the night. And if you’re not having a good time when you’re out, then the girls are just not going to be drawn to that. So that was a great thing I thought about that game that you were playing with each other.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, absolutely. And something that goes even beyond the man slap night is that Zack and I have a lot of just inside jokes like that. Me and him have a very strong bond, like whatever I say that's fine, you know. He's not only the guy that I run programs with, like he's the guy that, you know, like we hang out all the time. So a lot of times, like even when we were slapping each other and we were laughing and we had this inside joke about the man slap, girls want to be part of that, like they want to be part of that fun vibe.

So it’s also very effective to draw girls into like your party rather than…like what you said, a lot of guys go out and they sit there with their buddy and they look at the girls and the girls are having a blast. The girls are dancing. They’re having fun. And what these guys like want to do is they want to like sneak their way into the girls’ party, and like that's already losing battle because even if you’re able to get into that party, you’re still playing on like, you know, it’s still an away game. You want home court advantage.

And if a girl wants to be part of Zack and I’s party, I mean I’ve taken home girls just based on the fact that they thought what Zack and I were saying to each other at the club was funny, and they were like me and Zac [00:19:36] groupies. They would just follow us around the club and just want to be part of our party because Zack and I would be having the most fun in the bar just hanging out with each other. Like I said, I’ve taken girls home just based on that one thing.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I know exactly what you’re talking about, you know, when you create that vibe. Like my buddies and I were just at a party last weekend and it was a vampire party. So we really made a real big effort to go out, we got the makeup on and I was coming out of the house on fire and we had a blast. And you could see the whole club was kind of buzzing around us because it was obvious we were having a great time with it. And I think that's something that guys really underestimate. If you’re not having fun yourself, then you’re just making it really, really hard for you.

So this is something you tell guys, but just something that you in fact have together is that you have each other when you go out, and that gives you incredible access when you’re going out and meeting women, just the fact that you’re with each other and you’re having a fun time. So do you ever talk to guys about their social circle, who they’re going out with? Because it strikes me as, you know, it has such a big impact on your success with women and you’ve got that advantage.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, actually, you know, it’s funny, Zack and I, we… obviously, social circle is very important, and you definitely want to assemble like a really cool social circle. But it’s funny, I emphasize more just your relationship with your “wingman.” And I actually don’t even like that term wingman because I think it kind of reduces a guy who potentially is your friend into a guy you’re just using to help you pick up girls.

So what I tell guys to do is if you’re going out to meet women with your friend, don’t just meet him at the club and go into the club like you two are going off to some kind of military operation, you know, that like if you go to talk to a girl he has to come in and like occupy her friend. Instead, what I recommend guys do is they should meet up with their buddy well before they go to the club, go out, have a couple of beers or go out and go bowling, do something that's just fun that totally keeps your mind off even talking to girls at night. Just have a blast, get the party started well before you even walk into a club.

And when you get in there, obviously you guys are there to pick up girls, but you’re also there to have fun, and you guys should be looking at picking up girls as not only the fact that you want to pick up girls but also that it’s just something that you and your buddy do. It’s like going out, like going to the driving range to shoot some golf balls, like it’s just something that's just for you guys.

So again, I always feel really bad when I’m out at a club in New York City and I see guys coming in and know that they’ve studied pickup or they’ve studied dating advice because they’re the guys having the least amount of fun. It looks like they’re going to the electric chair. They’re sitting there the whole time. They’re worried about their value and how they’re coming across to the girls in the room. And that should not be a concern at all. You’ll come across great if you just show up with your buddy and just kick back, go nuts, have a blast, be the guys who are having the most fun in the venue. And that is so attractive.

So while I definitely think that like assembling a social circle with like girls and gay guys and friends and girlfriends is great, I would say the social circle starts, and the most important person in your social circle, is just your buddy you go out with.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, totally. That really is it. Now, I remember when I was reading through your book, you talked about one of your first approaches and the anxiety you felt and how hard it was, and I thought that was great because a lot of guys are thinking that, so it really enables them to see that you are like that too. Could you talk a bit about how you got over your anxieties about approaching women and how you dealt with that?

[Rob Judge]: Sure, yeah. And that story is like very, very dear to my heart because I know that every guy goes through this. I see it in my students. I see it in guys that write me letters. I know that this is a universal problem for every guy, and in fact, that one thing is what separates the guys who are going to attract their dream girl from the guys who aren’t, the guys that can overcome that anxiety and fear. So that's why I remember that story that you’re referencing.

I remember waking up that morning and I was really excited because I had just read a book that, you know, it talks about cold approaching, and for the first time in my life I was like, “Wow, this is a possibility. I can actually walk up to a stranger and I could talk to her.” So in my head I was going, “Oh, this is going to be easy. I’ll just go up and do it.” But as I started walking around that day and I started seeing like cute girls, I realized like, “Wow, this really exists. This is really scary.”

So when I was sitting in Starbucks that day, I gave myself every excuse not to do it. I said, “Oh, she looks busy, she looks like a bitch, she’s too hot, when I get cooler clothes…” or “When I read some more books on dating advice…” I made every excuse in my head, but ultimately what I realized and what kind of put one foot in front of the other is that I realized that if I didn’t do it, if I didn’t approach that girl at that moment, I was damning myself to a habitual life of not approaching women, of not taking action, of just sitting there and being a spectator.

And I mean, I don’t know about you guys, but I know for myself like the idea of being a spectator has always disgusted me. I’ve always wanted to be the one—I don’t necessarily mean I have to be the center of attention, but I always wanted a person that is making moves, is doing stuff, is not just sitting passively.

I’ll give you an example. I don’t watch TV. Like I know a lot of people watch a lot of TV, I can’t do it. I can’t sit down in front of the TV. And I’m not saying guys have to stop watching TV, but I’m just saying that like people should not cultivate a life of being a spectator.

So if you really want to live life…and this is what you really have to remind yourself. Every time you see that hot girl, no matter what the circumstances, no matter what excuses you’re making to yourself, you have to realize that if you don’t approach here you’re not living in reality, that you’re not living as an active participant in life. You’re living your life in a fantasy world in your own head and you’re going to live there alone and you’re going to be lonely.

So really, for every guy listening, I know that the reason you’re listening is because you want to expand your social circle. You want to expand the girls that you’re connecting with, the girls that you’re meeting, and the only way you’re going to do that is when you shut those voices up in your head and you just take action, and it really does not fucking matter what happens.

Like, well, that story is a great example because in that story, you know, I knew nothing about dating advice. I knew nothing, and I assumed that this girl is going to blow me off in a millisecond, and instead that girl ended up being my girlfriend for six months. So that's a thing. Guys have no idea how the interaction’s going to go down, so why not just walk up to her and take a chance, see how it goes? Because there's a good chance that she’s going to like you and that could be your next girlfriend.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, exactly, and what you realize when you get into this is that the opportunities are all around you and it’s just amazing. You go from a life where there’ll be one opportunity that would pop up through your social circle like once every six months to literally like tens of girls around you every single day or maybe even hundreds, depending on where you’re living and how busy it is and where you’re frequenting.

So what I found really interesting about this is that you talk a bit about where you find your motivation. Because making these kind of changes to your habits, to the way you live, it’s hard, right? Change is hard, and when you’re changing these things and you’re getting out of your comfort zone, it’s a mentally hard process. So I like the way you talk about your motivation. Could you talk a bit more about this motivation you have that helps you to break through that? You talk about your thinking like, “Oh, I don’t want to go back to this lifestyle. I want to get to live a full life.” Is that what it’s all about?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, you know, that's definitely one. And I talk about this in the book, kind of referenced before, is you have to make a decision if you want to live your life in reality or live it in fantasy. And again, most people live their life in fantasy. Most people live their life doing the same old habits day in and day out and they just say in their head, “Oh, I’m going to change one day,” like, “Oh, tomorrow, that's how I’m going to start.”

I know it’s so cliché but it’s true, like a lot of guys think, “Oh, when I read that next dating book,” or “Oh, when I get my hair cut,” or “Oh…” And they have all these excuses, and what those excuses really are, really boil down to, is that's just living your life in fantasy. Like rather than actually going out and trying something, you’re just telling yourself in your head, “Oh, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow,” or you know, excuse, excuse, excuse, and what that does is that just lets you just live inside your own head. Whereas in the book I really emphasize living in reality, finding out.

Because look, what it really boils down to is that all you can really get out of life is get the truth. The thing is, one thing students have found really helpful to really get over, not only their approach anxiety, but to get over all their anxieties about dealing with women and getting outside their comfort zone, is rather than looking at it like, “Oh, I’m trying to get this girl,” or, “Oh, I’m practicing my dating skills,” rather than look at that from that perspective, look at it like, “I’m getting the truth.” That's the way I look at everything. All you can really do is get at the truth.

So if you see that really gorgeous girl walking down the street, the truth’s waiting for you. Like she might be a total bitch. She might be the greatest. She might be your future wife. You have no idea. But you’re not going to get to that truth unless you actually approach her.

So I think that that's the first thing guys have to really, really set in their head, that they’re going to live in reality, and in reality they’re going to get the truth. And that carries through not only from approach her, but it carries through to when you’re talking to her, rather than just having a fluff conversation, get at the truth. What’s the truth of this girl? Who is she? What is it about her aside from her looks that you’re attracted to? Find that out about her.

And then now, again, let that carry through when you want a date with her. Is she a good kisser? Find out. Go ahead and kiss her. Are you two sexually compatible. You should find that out by having sex with her. And that's the thing, is like look at it, look at the whole timeline of an interaction, rather than like, “Oh, I’m trying to sleep with this girl or trying to get this girl,” as “I’m trying to get at the truth. I’m just trying to figure out if this is the right girl for me.”

So I think that really realigning your mindset to be truth-oriented rather than be outcome-oriented really helps a lot of guys make effective changes because it takes away a lot of anxiety of going outside their comfort zone and developing a new habit.

[Angel Donovan]: Yes. Yeah, that's really great. And I think the advantage of the way you look at it, searching for truth, is that one of the ways we stop ourselves from acting on things in life when we’re getting out of our comfort zone is we talk ourselves out of it. As you were saying earlier, you give yourself lots of excuses – she’s busy, maybe she’s a bitch, and so on. So having this attitude where you’re searching for the truth and you admit that, well, actually, I don’t really know anything about that girl, right? So I’ve really got to find out the truth…I want to find out the truth of the situation and I have to actually approach her, and then I’ll find out. Until I do that, I don’t know anything.

[Rob Judge]: Exactly. That's exactly what I’m saying. Yeah, that's a perfect way to sum it up, is just exactly what you’re saying, is you don’t know anything about that girl. You don’t know if that girl is the greatest human being that you’ve ever met in your life or the biggest bitch on the planet. You have no clue, and you have no idea what your future is with that girl.

And you know, even if the girl turns out to be a total bitch, like let's just say that you’re right, the excuse you made in your head, like you say, “Oh, she looks like a bitch but Rob told me to go find out the truth so I’m going to go do it,” and this girl blows you off like in a nanosecond. She just like is a total bitch. She screams at you. You know what? You might have found out very little about her other than the fact that she’s a bitch, but you found out a lot about yourself. You found out about your own courage, about your ability to take action even when you feel a lot of anxiety.

So the truth is not just like, oh, finding out about her, it’s also the truth you find out about yourself. And on top of that, you find out a ton of truth about dating and relationships. Like every time…look, I didn’t get to where I’m at now without having thousands of girls blow me off and get rejected so many times down, you know, like in the last couple of years. I mean, that's how I learned all this stuff.

So that's the thing, is like if you ever want to get good at dating skills and get good at attracting women, you have to be ready to have a lot of interaction and focus on the truth. And those interactions might mean, so a girl’s blowing you off or you’re getting rejected, but the thing is that if you look at it from that truth perspective, you’re not really getting rejected or you’re not really getting…girl’s not blowing you off, you’re just learning something. You’re just learning something every time. You’re just getting another glimpse of the truth.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it’s a really great mindset I haven’t seen anywhere else, so thanks for that. Now, the biggest thing I really thought that you brought to the dating advice market with your book was that you had a great focus on the priority that guys need to resolve in order to get good with women. It's not like you have a ton of advice you really just focus on a few things and I thought it was very like 80-20 or, you know, do 20% of the things and get 80% of the results. So could you talk about some of the most important things you think that guys need to fix in their game? And is it different for each guy, like do guys typically have different things they need to fix or need to think about, like the thing that I need to change to really start making progress with women?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, you know, that's a great question because that's the paradox of dating advice, is I could write a book like The Rob Judge Method and I could basically give a step-by-step explanation of how I pick up girls and how I meet women and how I take girls from seeing them on the street or in a nightclub and making them my girlfriend, but ultimately that only works for me, because it’s my personality. I could tell you the lines that I say. I could tell you the dates that I date them on. I could tell you a lot of different things that I do, but ultimately that's not effective because not everyone’s me.

Like I have a very broad spectrum of students and, you know, some guys are very similar to me, but some guys are more similar to Zack. I’m more of like a dorky writer type, kind of artsy. That's my personality, whereas Zack’s more of like the fun party guy. And we have completely different styles, but like the method’s the same.

So I think that those four core elements that we talk about in the book, which are drive, inspiration, connection, and mechanics, those four elements are universal. Those are just four behaviors that as men we need to display for women to feel attraction, and there are no ifs, ands or buts about that. Every guy needs to display those four behaviors, but how each guy displays those behaviors is completely up to him.

So I think the most important things are, first, that guys just recognize what those four behaviors are, okay? So, for instance, like drive. The way each guy communicates drive is going to be different. Like the way that I go up and approach a girl might be very direct, but there might be another guy who doesn’t really necessarily express his desire directly. Maybe he does it more subtly. Maybe he likes to go up and cheese and girl and joke around with her, and that's the way that he expresses the fact that he's attracted to a woman. That's fine.

So the thing is like I don’t really have a step by step system where I say, “Go up to the girl and say this,” but I do emphasize that like look, this should be your mindset and this should be the way you think when you walk up to the girl. And however you want to express that mindset is fine, but go up and do that.

Another thing is, what’s really important for a lot of guys, and especially guys that study dating advice don’t realize, is all their interactions go south because they don’t balance those four elements, okay? So just imagine a guy who walks up to a girl and says, “Oh, you’re really hot. I had to meet you.” The girl says, “Okay,” and then she just kind of sits there, and the guy’s like, “Yeah, yeah, you’re really hot.” And then all of a sudden it gets awkward, like you’re just coming on too strong and the girl’s going to walk away and say, “Oh my God, that guy was creepy.”

And the thing is, that guy was showing too much drive. It’s good that he led off with that drive element, but what’s really important is then he should come back and balance that with one of what we call like a release element, which is either connection or inspiration.

So now, say a guy comes up and says, “Oh, I thought you’re really hot,” and then all of a sudden he goes into a story or he makes a joke, or even if he just kind of smiles and opens up his body language. That allows the woman to relax and she, “Okay, this guy’s not threatening. He's sexual, but he's not like a complete creep. This guy could be someone that I might be interested in.”

And then, you know, those four elements, as long as a guy can cycle through those four elements throughout an interaction and notice signs when he may be coming on too strong or notice signs maybe when he's not coming on strong enough, and he just counterbalances those signals with the proper element, I really think that any guy can master the system and go out and attract women that are like what they previously thought were totally out of their league because what this does is this gets guys in touch with…allows men to express their personality in the most attractive way to women imaginable. This is like, I mean I wrote in the beginning of the book, this is kind of like the magic pill for guys. Like all you have to do is learn these behaviors, go out and apply them.

And you know, attraction isn’t this mystical thing. It’s not this thing that only happens when you’re dressed right or only happens when you’re in state or when you approach enough girls. This could be something that a guy could the book, go out, and just because maybe the book just clicks with him, he could go out and meet his dream girl, like the first girl he approaches.

So I’m very confident with the system and that guys just learn that balance that they can do really well. And a lot of the letters I’ve gotten from guys who have read the book have said, “Oh, you know, I’ve read your book and I went out and met my dream girl at the bar,” or, “I read your book and I went home with a girl last night.” I mean, the letters I’ve been getting have really reinforced my confidence, the fact that this works and that if you just learn that system, it makes things very, very simple and very clear.

[Angel Donovan]: Thanks Rob, really great overview. Yeah, so there is a lot of dating advice out there today and there's so much detail, and actually users of Dating Skills Review are always telling us that they find it overwhelming, that they’re like drowning in dating advice and there are just so many different types of dating advice that they kind of find it hard to get started because there's so much information out there. So the focus really does help people. To take first steps and to get started, like what do you think someone should do? Their very first steps, they’ve just come into the world of dating advice and they kind of want to do something. What would you say they should do to take the first steps into dating the most effective possible?

[Rob Judge]: Okay, yeah, that's a great question. Well, you know, I think the first thing the guys really need to do is just get the fundamentals down. So, again, you should really focus at first just on the drive element. Guys should just get in touch with approaching women in a masculine way. So it might just be walking up and saying, “Hey, do you have the time?” but if they do it with a great voice projection, they keep really good eye contact…because, you know, the thing is for a newbie guy, I know myself included, when guys start out, it’s very hard to go up and to speak with a very clear resonant voice, have good body language, keep eye contact, not feel nervous. These are all things that maybe a new guy has to work on.

So what I would focus on, I would just take it slow. The first thing, say to yourself, okay, let me go out and let me just practice expressing my drive, my masculine drive. So let me go out and I’m going to approach…and the thing is for a lot of guys, you have to give yourself a number. Okay, this is really important. When I got into this, this really made a huge difference in how quickly I picked this up, was when I went out—I used to go out on my lunch break, I used to work in an office in midtown Manhattan, and what I would do is on my lunch break I would go out and I’d say, okay, today I am going to approach five women and I, you know, it didn’t matter what I said, it didn’t matter what I did, but I had to go up to five strangers and approach them. And like I said, I’d go up to them and I’d try to keep eye contact or I would just try to speak with a clear resonant voice, or I would just try not to be nervous, like just walking up and not like shitting myself was a huge accomplishment back then.

And you know, once I kind of got comfortable doing that, then I said okay, let me try to approach five women and kind of make a joke with them or joke around with them, and let me try to approach five women and let me see if I can go for a phone number or get the girl’s name. You know, just take each one of the four elements and work on it in succession. Like first work on your drive, then work on your inspiration, then maybe kind of like work on your connection or your mechanics, like whatever it is, but just start very slowly. So for guys starting out, just go up and first…and again, just focus on getting the truth. Learn the truth of being attractive, which is walk up and speak, you know, like I said, just work on the fundamentals.

[Angel Donovan]: I want to take like a bit of a step backward because I wanted to talk about this earlier, but we need to get a bit of an idea how this has changed your life. Could you kind of give us an explanation of like, how's your dating lifestyle today, are you happy with it and why?

[Rob Judge]: Okay, yeah. You know, that's an interesting question because I went through a couple of phases. When I got good at this…I came from a place where I really didn’t have that much experience with women. I had one girlfriend all through college. I’d spent all these years where all my friends had gone out and gotten these great experiences and dated a couple of different girls. I only dated one girl.

So when I really got good at this, I started out, you know, my thing at first was I just wanted to date a lot of girls casually. So I kind of went through I guess what a lot of guys going into this go through. I went through kind of like a little bit of a like a player phase where, you know, I really enjoyed just going out, going home with girls that night, having maybe, you know, kind of casually just seeing four or five girls at the same time. So I definitely spent a good year, two years, doing that.

And now what I’ve been really focused on is I’ve been going out and just trying to find my dream girl. And it’s funny because actually just two weeks ago I was teaching a day game program, we had a client that had come to us and he just wanted to learn day game, and we worked all day with him, we had a great program. And Zack and I just went to one of our favorite lounges to just kind of go and have a drink, we weren’t really focused on meeting girls, but when I was going to the bathroom I saw like my dream girl.

And like, when I had gotten into this I had written all this stuff in my journal about what my dream girl would look like, how she'd be dressed, you know, down to her eye color, her hair color, her height, like everything, and this girl was that girl, like literally this girl was right out of the page from my journal when I first got into dating advice. So like I knew I could not let this opportunity just like pass me by. I had to get the truth in this. Like she looks like that, could this girl be the girl that I really wanted?

And what was so cool was when I really realized how far I’d come. You know, just like when I was in Vegas, like I knew when I walked up to that girl, I knew exactly what to do, exactly what to say. She was there with a couple of friends, I knew exactly how to handle that, how to like kind of get her away from her friends to talk to her one on one. And I ended up getting that girl’s number and I actually have a date with her tomorrow.

And it’s funny because the way I feel now, it’s almost like the way I was when I first got into dating, but in terms of the feelings of like being just being super-happy and super-excited to meet up with a girl, but at the same time, it’s not like a bad nervousness, like, “Oh, I don’t know what to do.” Like now I feel that happiness and that excitement to meet this new girl, but at the same time I’m also coming from a place that like I know exactly what to do on a date or exactly what to do when I’m talking to her. So there's no like negative anxiety. I’m just totally, totally natural around her. And I think that that for me, it kind of made me come full circle, but now I’ve come full circle with all of the dating skills and all the attractive qualities in place.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, and that really comes back to a point I keep coming back to, is that the fact that you know what to do so you’re not nervous about it means that you can be comfortable to enjoy yourself and have fun with the girl, which of course makes the whole thing just better for her and a lot more enjoyable for both of you, and she’s more attracted to you because of it. So, like you say, it’s a bit of a full circle.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, absolutely. Another thing, I’ve talked about this a lot, is you know, a lot of guys get into this, and a lot of the people in this dating advice industry they really push that player lifestyle, and again, I’m not going to knock that and I’m not going to sit here and condemn it because I went through that phase too, but ultimately a lot of guys I meet, they just want to meet like a great girlfriend. They just want to meet their dream girl. And what guy doesn’t want to feel excited to go on a date with a girl, and what guy doesn’t want to be a little nervous, but like a good nervous, to like meet up with a girl for like the first time after they had a great interaction at a lounge or a bar or on the street?

So the thing that I always tell guys, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don’t become so callous that you turn yourself off to those really great emotions that you should be feeling. That's what dating is all about, is to be excited to meet new people and to meet people that really, really are quality women. That's why our company’s called Date Hotter Girls. We want guys to upgrade their dating lives.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that's inspirational, so. Rob, man, this has been a great conversation. It’s been really good to talk with you and you had lots of great tips for our users here. So your book, Four Elements of Game, like I said, Dating Skills Review editors, we think it’s great, it’s on the site. And you have recaps from Date Hotter Girls on the site of your company. But before we go, before we got into this interview earlier you said that you’ve got a lot of new stuff coming up, so could you tell us a bit more about like what other products you’ve got coming out?

[Rob Judge]: Sure, absolutely. Zack and I, actually, when we finished the book, we wanted to record…we kind of wanted to do like an off-the-cuff audio session where we really unpack a lot of the concepts. Because, you know, I mean the book stands…it’s 175 pages, and I tried to boil everything I learned in the last four years of dating hundreds of different women into one book, so obviously there's a lot of information in there. So Zack and I wanted to put out this audio product that had a little bit more of our personalities on it and let us kind of let guys see that, again, there are a lot of stories in the book about me and Zack out at the bar, at the club, and what we learned, but we really wanted guys to really get a sense of where this information really came from. So on this audio session you get a lot of me and Zack just talking to each other about some of the stories that we experienced and allowed us to just really kind of free associate our concepts in the book with Zack and I. And what I think is really cool about that program is you really get a lot of Zack’s perspective, and Zack has a lot of really cool stuff to say on attraction dating.

So that's one of the products. We’re also putting out a DVD set that’s a compilation of some of our infield footage, some unreleased infield footage that's never been seen before, some just commentary from Zack and I, and a lot of clips. You know, Zack and I have been doing a lot of speaking tours in terms of giving talks to various men’s groups and stuff like that, and conventions. So we actually got all the footage from that and we’re going to take the best clips from that and put it together in this DVD set that we’re going to be offering.

And we have a couple of other things too. We have a 28 Days to Success book, which basically takes everything from The Four Elements of Game and tells you what to do each day, how many women to approach, how you should be approaching them. It really translates all the information in the book to a very, very easy-to-follow plan that will take you from wherever you’re at now to hopefully, if you follow the 28 days, to being that guy you want to be, and we’re hoping to get that full change in guys in 28 days.

[Angel Donovan]: That sounds like a great range of products. I just wanted to add on one thing you spoke about on your DVD that you’re bringing out, infield footage, so I think that's going to be you and Zack actually out in bars, filmed in bars approaching women, talking to women, is that what it’s about?

[Rob Judge]: Yeah. Last summer we had a couple of various pickup artists and dating advice companies, because they sort of challenged us. We have this reputation in New York as being pretty good at cold approaching women, so we recorded footage for several companies. And the footage went really well. You’re going to see every type of interaction, daytime nighttime. Everything you can imagine was recorded over the course of a couple of nights that we filmed with them.

And one of the agreements we have with these companies was that we also had exclusive rights to the footage, and up until now we’ve kind of just sat on it and we’ve only really showed our students from our live programs, but Zack and I, the students on my program get so much out of this footage, and especially when Zack and I break it down, that Zack and I really decided that it would be a great learning tool for guys to see really the proper way to speak to women, to talk to women, really see that Zack and I live everything that we write about in the book.

[Angel Donovan]: That's great. Well, as soon as those are available, you’ll be able to find more about them on Dating Skills Review. They will be up there. Rob, it’s been great talking to you today. It’s the first time we connected. I hope we get another chance to talk soon. And thank you from all of our users.

[Rob Judge]: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Angel, thanks for having me. It’s been a great interview. Thanks so much.