Ep. #30 The Role of Sex and Orgasms in Relationships with David Shade

[Angel Donovan]: Welcome to another episode of the weekly Dating Skills Podcast from Dating Skills Review. This is Angel Donovan, and today I'm interviewing David Shade. David Shade has been working on his area of specialty, which is sex advice, sexuality, for nearly two decades. Before David came along, all it really was was mainstream advice, which is pretty conservative and doesn’t tend to really get to the truth or reality of sexual relationships. So when he appeared in 2001 professionally after he'd been working on it for a while, it was really a breakthrough, and he was the first guy to really break into this area. So it's great to have him on the show today.

So David, it's great to have you on the podcast.

[David Shade]: Hey, it's a pleasure to be speaking with you, Angel, and I'm honored to be speaking to your clients.

[Angel Donovan]: Great. About 10 years ago in 2002-2003, I first read David Shade’s Manual, and so it's basically been a decade since I was introduced to you as someone talking about and teaching people about sex, which is pretty amazing. Ten years, it's been a long time already.

[David Shade]: I appreciate your long-term customer.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] Yeah, so I just want to give people a bit of background. You've been around for a hell of a long time compared to some people, and teaching this stuff for a long time, so obviously you've been building on it for a while. So it's great to have you. By the way, is David Shade’s Manual still available, that kind of original document?

[David Shade]: No, it's not.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[David Shade]: It grew. It grew much larger. It grew into a program that I called Advanced Sexual Hypnosis, and that grew again into a much larger program. Now it's actually about 26 DVDs, and a huge binder, bunch of audio CDs, a whole bunch of stuff in one great big program. So that 29-dollar book is now a 997-dollar home study course.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow. Wow, that's a lot. Well, you know, I remember the days of when it was just one ebook and it was a lot different back then, so it's amazing that so much information there now to help people, although back in the day I did find that manual… it was one of the first parts that kind of sent me on my sexual exploration and expansion. So thank you for that. It's another reason why I'm glad to have you on the show. So let's talk a bit about where your work is focused on.

You know, did a lot of work around orgasms and how to give women better orgasms and talking about why women get orgasms and so on. Can you a bit about like why you feel orgasms are important and why you chose to write quite a lot about that area?

[David Shade]: Yeah, well, I've always found female orgasms quite fascinating. You know, in my 20s when I was dating, before I got married, I was very fortunate to be with women who were very responsive. They were all about my age. Like my college sweetheart, she was very responsive to me, very orgasmic. I just had so much fun giving her orgasms.

But girls that I dated who I couldn't give orgasms to, it just was so bland, and instead of trying to figure out how to give them an orgasm, I just break up with them and go with the one who’s actually having orgasms. So all the women that I dated for any period before I got married were very orgasmic, and it was just a lot of fun. I had just always been fascinated by women, fascinated by female sexuality, and fascinated by female orgasms.

At the time, I really didn't put things together why are some of these women having orgasms and some aren't. It's something that I wanted to figure out someday, but then I got married. The marriage was great. She was hot. She was very orgasmic. We always had simultaneous orgasms in intercourse. We got married, we had two children, built big homes in the suburbs, but—and you know, sex was great. We had sex every night. She had to have it every day. It was fun. Life was good as far as I was concerned.

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds like the perfect situation.

[David Shade]: But the problem is, after eight years of marriage, suddenly the frequency of sex started going down. I didn't know… what’s going on here? And then she told me that she wanted a divorce, she was moving out. And then, shortly after that, I found out that she had been dating a bad boy. She had been cheating on me.

So this guy was the typical bad boy, machismo slimeball inconsiderate jerk, blah, blah, blah. But I wanted to figure out, what has this guy got? How was he able to steal my wife away from me? I was pissed and I was determined to figure that out.

Also, at the same time, I decided I had to figure out, what does it take to find a woman who you can actually have a successful relationship with? How come I chose wrong? What did I not know? What did I not see coming? Because I thought I was doing everything right. And I was, you know, I was a great father and husband and provider, classic nice guy. So I started a long journey of introspection and deep research. God, I researched a lot trying to figure that out.

And at the same time, I knew I was going to be dating again, and I figured, you know, I've always been very interested in human sexuality. I'm going to figure this out. I'm really going to enjoy trying to be a better lover. I'm really going to study up on this. And the girls that I was dating I was trying new things on. I read every book that you could possibly get your hands on. I was ordering stuff through the mail, anyway that I could learn how to be a better lover.

I wasn’t really happy with the things that I was reading, and then I was viewing, so I just decided to try stuff on my own, and some really bizarre stuff started happening. I was doing things with the girls that I was dating that I had not seen written anywhere. And I continued to build this and I kind of, you know, made notes of these kinds of things, tried to find men that I could talk to. Has anybody done this? Nobody had no idea.

Now, in the mid-nineties the Internet came out. Wow, you know, the Internet! This is great! And I was in computers at the time, so of course at work we were heavy into the Internet too. And I thought, wow, you know, this is a theater where I can find other guys to talk to about this kind of stuff, try and see if anybody else has done this.

And, [laughs] interestingly, you know, at the same time I was trying to improve my pickup skills, so I looked around on the Internet for… I was actually looking for wing men, actually, and I ended up stumbling upon the seduction community. I thought, wow, this is great, man! There's a whole underground community on the Internet. I'm going to jump into this. And I also found it was a great place for me to write about the things that I had been doing with women, you know, giving them orgasms in new and different ways.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And I found a great audience in the seduction community, plus, at the same time, I was reading up on Mystery’s posts and stuff like that. I actually hung out with Mystery in the late nineties, trying to learn some game, that kind of stuff. But I was really focusing on what I was doing with the girls that I was dating at the time, so I found a great audience.

And what I ended up doing in 2000 is I took everything that I had written in the nineties and I put it all together into one book and called it David Shade’s Manual for the lack of a better word, and created a website and said, “Here's this book for 29.95. You send me a dollar-fifty for shipping and I’ll mail it out to you.”

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[David Shade]: And I actually printed the book on my dot-matrix printer and bound the book in my living room, and I sent out about one a day in the morning on my way to work. Money order would show up at the post office back in the days of money orders and paperback books. If you bought in 2003, you got the paperback version…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Shade]: …because it was actually some time after that that I made an ebook. So what really took off though is in March of 2000 I took a three-day hypnosis course from a guy that I knew named Mark Cunningham, who I’d heard about through Ross Jeffries. He'd been on a number of Ross Jeffries’ products. When I heard him, I, “Wow, I want to study under that guy, and I want to learn hypnosis,” because by then I’d already figured out that female sexuality is entirely mental, and what’s the most powerful tool? Well, that's hypnosis.

And when I learned hypnosis, it just changed everything. And the night after I came home from that seminar, my girlfriend came over. She was looking forward to being hypnotized because she knew I was going to learn hypnosis, and I hypnotized her that night, and I did something to her that no hypnotist had ever done in documented history and nobody knows that has ever been done, and that actually became the first chapter of David Shade’s Manual. And that's just when everything really took off, learning hypnosis, doing some really wild, wacky shit.

I’d always found female orgasm fascinating. Now, you asked, why is it important? Now, I know that a lot of people say, “You know, there's a lot to be enjoyed in sex. A woman doesn’t have to have an orgasm to enjoy sex.” Well, this is true. It's actually true. A woman gets a lot out of sex even if she doesn’t have an orgasm. Lots of reasons. But I've also seen a lot of long-term marriages…

When I was divorced, I was 36 years old. I was pretty devastated. You know, why did my wife leave me, blah, blah, blah. And at the time I started dating, and it seemed like all the women that I dated were recently-divorced women in their early 30s. So I talked to these women because we had the common experience of divorce. I talked to her about her divorce and her relationship, and I was always very fascinated with women and their sexuality, so I’d ask these women, why did you decide to divorce your husband? And in every single case, she had lost respect for him.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And in every single case, she said that he was a lousy lover. Now, she lost respect for him for various… it would be a different reason in each case, but she did lose respect for him.

[Angel Donovan]: Is there any kind of like thread to… you know, is there any way of abstracting that, like there was like five overall reasons for losing respect or, you know, is it really very, very varied and kind of tiny details?

[David Shade]: It could be a number of things, and it could be, in a lot of cases, the guy just was not being the man.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: He was not being sexually dominant. He was not being decisive in his life.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: He would not plan the dates. He would lean on her for a lot of things. He did not make her feel sexy, beautiful and feminine. A lot of routine. Routine will kill respect. But in all of these cases, also associated with that loss of respect was he was never really a good lover. And every single one of these women, without exception, the first relationship that they would get in after their divorce, and in very few cases she’d cheat on her husband with another guy, but in all these cases, the first guy she was with turned out to be a bad boy.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Shade]: And these bad boys were really exciting lovers. They were very dominant in the bedroom. They were very masculine outside of the bedroom. In the bedroom, they talked dirty. Outside the bedroom, you know, on occasions, they'd talk dirty. They always made her feel really sexy, really, really, really feminine, because they were really masculine.

And these women loved the fact that he was very masculine, but they started to figure out, actually, he was very machismo. They loved the fact that he was very protective, but they figured out that actually he was very possessive. They loved the fact that he was very dominant, but they eventually figured out that he was very domineering. And often, what would end up happening is the bad boy would cheat on her with some other girl. And then these women would go through this terrible emotional rollercoaster of trying to break up with them, but she's addicted to the sex. Finally, she breaks up with them.

So anyway, I would ask these women, “Okay, your bad boy boyfriend, he was a good lover. What was it, did he have a big dick?” And she’d say, “Well, actually, no.” Then I’d ask her, “Well, your husband, he was a lousy lover, did he have a small dick?” And she'd say, “Well, actually, no.” So all that social programming that I was raised on started to crumble, that women are not what social programming had made them out to be. They're not these innocent little creatures who don’t have any naughty thoughts. Actually, they're highly sexual creatures and they are very wrapped up in their sexuality. Sexuality is an extremely important thing to them.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Especially when it's good. When it's good, they are deeply addicted to it. So I started thinking, well, I kind of like what these bad boys are doing. And I reverse-engineered the bad boys and I decided, well, I’ll just be a bad boy, what the fuck? I got a convertible Corvette, I wore a leather jacket, sunglasses, shaved my head, became total bad boy, right? And it fucking worked. [Laughs] You know, my wife cheated on a bad boy, so one of the things I had to experience was, I’ll go steal some other guy’s wife.

[Angel Donovan]: I guess that was very cathartic for you becoming the bad boy. [Laughs]

[David Shade]: Yeah, I know. I look at myself now, I think, what, me? Ha! That's hilarious! And yeah, but I went through this phase where it fucking worked. I mean, I was a total dick. I don’t recommend it. But you know, some guy stole my wife away, so I figured fuck it, I’ll do it. There are a lot of horny wives out there that got lame husbands. And I’d found out from talking to women after my divorce that there are a lot of women actually looking for this, and it actually wasn’t very hard. It wasn’t very hard to find married women looking for a bad boy. Well, actually, they're not looking for a bad boy, they're looking for something. They don’t really know what it is, but when they meet a bad boy, all of a sudden they realize, oh, they want him. They didn't really know that they were looking for it.

Anyway, it was not very difficult to get with married women. And that's kind of an interesting experience, but I didn't do that for very long because it actually made my stomach turn. It made me sick to my stomach. Okay… oh, also, it did not make for lasting relationships, [laughs] and also did not really attract the kind of quality women that I was interested in, so I gave that up. It was a fun experiment, but it was very much a learning experiment.

I realized, okay, what I got to be doing, I got to be doing all the things that bad boys do that work and I got to not be doing this shit that the bad boys do that ruins it for them, and I got to start bringing back some of the nice guy stuff that actually works really well and definitely the nice guy stuff that I did that ruins it for a guy.

[Angel Donovan]: So, I mean, all of this is really coming from a relationship perspective, developing a good relationship with the girl, right? That seems where you came from. I mean, I know that's not everyone’s kind of where they come from, but from you it really seems to be kind of driven by what you wanted to do in the relationship and developing a good relationship with the woman and getting better at it.

[David Shade]: Yeah, everything that I do is about developing a relationship. That's the perspective of my work, that's the perspective of my interest, and I have been very fortunate that since my divorce, I have had had wonderful relationships with truly wonderful women.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And I really, really enjoy pushing the envelope, I mean really pushing the envelope hard of what is possible in a relationship. That has been the main avenue of my work. Now, the interesting thing is, [laughs] much of my fan base is from the seduction community.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And the reason is, guys in the seduction community, they're interested in being better with women, and they also understand… Also, guys in the seduction community make investments in themselves.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: They invest in self-development, and what I have is basically self-development stuff, so it's a good match. Also, guys who are interested in being better lovers, they're also interested in seduction. They really go hand in hand. And I've always been very interested in the seduction community. I've been involved in it since just about the beginning. You know, about ’98 I started, and I've always been a big fan of it, and I still am and I'm still very active. In fact, actually, I do things the opposite. I worked on relationships for many years. I've been divorced for 21 years. Many years I was working on relationships…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: …but actually now I'm really starting to knuckle down and figure out the seduction part, really working on my own game.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: But that's just for my own enjoyment, for my own personal life. My work has always been and always will be about making relationships stronger, but really what my work is about is being a better man, having a better relationship with women. And a man can choose to use that in a long-term marriage or he can choose to use it in one-night stands. I don’t tell them how to use it in a one-night stand, but I've gotten a lot of really interesting emails of what has happened in one-night stands.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, I know that you've gone into a lot of detail about different types of orgasms when you talk about them, and one of your books actually covers a lot of research about how the orgasm works and everything, so what would you say the main misunderstandings of orgasms are amongst men? Or what are the key things that they really don’t want to get wrong but are common assumptions of how it works or something they’ve learned from society which doesn’t help them and may sabotage them?

[David Shade]: You know, there are a lot of things in society, in social programming, that does not help us as men.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: We need to find truth and truth is found in reality, and that is certainly a very important thing that I highlight in my work. And all of us in the seduction community, we know that social programming is a bunch of bullshit and we don’t go by it, but we're all victims of it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: You know, I could go down the whole list, but we're familiar with those things. Let's talk about female orgasm. You and I talked briefly before and I still haven't answered your question yet, and that is, why is it important for women to have orgasms?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And after talking to all those married women, they said that their husbands were lousy lovers just because their husbands were not giving them orgasms. Now, there are a lot of reasons why the husband wasn’t giving them orgasms, but the scoreboard is orgasms, okay? That's how you know if you're doing it right, orgasms.

[Angel Donovan]: The scoreboard? What is that?

[David Shade]: The scoreboard. The scoreboard is orgasms. That's how you keep score. Are you giving her orgasms, yeah? You're doing it right. Are you not? You're not doing it right. Women who would leave their husband and then get with a bad boy, all of a sudden she starts having orgasms, and she would become addicted to the sex, okay? Well, she's addicted to the bad boy, she's addicted to how she feels, but the ruler, the scoreboard is orgasms. That's how you know it's really working.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. It's like a marker.

[David Shade]: Yeah. All of a sudden, these women are having orgasms. Now, here's something very interesting and something that casts a very long shadow in my work, and that is that these women who were married, a lot of them had never had orgasm in intercourse with their husband would be same thing every night. He’d go down on her, he'd lick her until she had a clitoral orgasm, and then he'd get on top of her and he'd fuck her until… we can use the f-word, right? We're among friends.

[Angel Donovan]: It's fine, it's fine.

[David Shade]: Okay. Okay. [Laughs] I have to check. Which one of you… [laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely everyone listens to this, so you know…

[David Shade]: Yeah, okay.

[Angel Donovan]: I think people are used to it in society these days. It's in enough films, right?

[David Shade]: Alright, so we can talk about how we love to turn women into horny little cum sluts, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, sure. Be whoever you are.

[David Shade]: [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Be whoever you are, that's what I say.

[David Shade]: Great. So, you know, then the husband would get on top of her and fuck her until he had an orgasm, and then they'd roll over and go to sleep.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: But I can tell you, that gets really fucking old. Now, interestingly, these women, after they're divorced, they get with the bad boy, and all of a sudden they realize they could have orgasms in intercourse, which is technically called a vaginal orgasm.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Alright, so he was able to open something up in her, and that’s because he was able to evoke very powerful emotions in her, because female sexuality is 100% mental. It's not because the bad boy had a bigger dick.

[Angel Donovan]: Can we just step back a moment? So can all women have orgasms?

[David Shade]: Say that again?

[Angel Donovan]: Can all women have orgasms? Is this something that every woman you come across, you know, from the perspective of a guy, like right now he's thinking, okay, orgasms are the scoreboard, and right now I'm with my girl and we're not having orgasms, so I'm kind of worried about that.

[David Shade]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So let's take a step back… [laughs]

[David Shade]: [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so do all women have orgasms?

[David Shade]: Alright…

[Angel Donovan]: What’s the kind of terrain that we're starting with here?

[David Shade]: To answer your question… Okay, all women were born with a clitoris and a vagina and a brain.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: They are all capable of having clitoral and vaginal orgasms.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: They are all capable of it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: There's no such thing as some women being born lucky and some not, period. But, it is also true that not all women have orgasms. Some women have never had an orgasm. You know, I don't know if you've ever seen HBO’s Real Sex. That was a special on HBO for a long time.

[Angel Donovan]: Haven't seen it.

[David Shade]: They actually had a case on there where a 72-year-old woman finally had her first clitoral orgasm.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow.

[David Shade]: She went to some class in San Francisco and they taught her how to masturbate.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Shade]: Okay, so all women are capable of having orgasms. Not all women have orgasms, and it's for a number of reasons, but all those reasons are mental. They are not physical.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: There's something going on in the head. Now, it is certainly true that women who experienced severe sexual abuse as a child, it's going to make it real difficult, as you can understand, right? It's going to make it really, really difficult. But if you go completely to the other end of the spectrum, women who had a completely normal healthy upbringing, interestingly, orgasms come very readily for them. In fact, they actually started playing with themselves at a much earlier age than boys did. Girls raised in a functional home with love and support and guidance and rules and boundaries and a close relationship with their parents, she'll actually be very sexual [laughs] exactly those kind of girls, and they tell me, they started playing with themselves when they were 4 or 5 years old. And even before they started playing with themselves, they have wild sexual fantasies. They really didn't even know about the sex organs. They just had fantasies about men and women getting intimate with each other, and they didn't really even know the physics of intimacy.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: But they would have their first clitoral orgasm through experimentation—they just realize, wow, when I touch this, it feels good—at about 4 or 5, some at 6 – that's pretty late. It could be they happen to be rubbing against a window sill, it could be just playing with themselves at night, could be sliding down a banister, sliding down a jungle gym, the kind of fall-uponness like, whoa, this is fun, and they just go with it and, [laughs] you know, “Wow, I got this new toy,” and they play with it a lot.

And interestingly, these girls from age 6 to 11 have a lot of lesbian experiences with their little girlfriends. They have the little pillow sleepover. They have the sleepover, but what they do after the lights go out is they get naked and they get it on. They rub their genitals together. This happens a lot, little girls between 6 and 11.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: After about 11, they start to differentiate and they start getting more interested in boys. Up to that point, it's just way too taboo, but they experiment with each other. And then the straight girls, well, we have to be careful when we say straight. [Laughs] The girls that are going to go society’s normal route of eventually getting with guys, they’ll stop playing with girls about 11 or maybe a little after, typically. This is from the girls that I've dated that have told me. And then they start flirting with boys and going on innocent dates with boys. But then it'll be about 14, then they’ll actually have sex, first with a boy, maybe 15, some 16.

Interestingly, a number of these girls, when they were 14, they would seduce a man who was much older than them. I mean, these were really, really confident women. They were really confident in their sexuality. When they were 14, they were really starting to blossom. They started looking pretty fucking hot and they knew it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And they were exercising their sexuality, their sexual power, and they'd actually seduce like the single father of their… their girlfriend’s father that they used to babysit for, she’d seduce him. It'd take a while to finally do it. Like one ex-girlfriend of mine seduced a 40-year-old man when she was 14. She said, “David, I was having sex with a 40-year-old man and I had teddy bears on my bed.” And [laughs] there's no way she would ever admit it. Even if they got busted, she would never admit. She would protect him.

But that's how sexual these women are, and they are readily, readily orgasmic. My college sweetheart, the first time we had intercourse, she had a vaginal orgasm. Let's see, the first girl, no, the second girl I dated right after I graduated from high school, she was a virgin, and the first time she had intercourse with me she had a vaginal orgasm.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Just [makes sound]. It just works. But there are a lot of women who struggle at great length.

[Angel Donovan]: So, like going back there, so we've just been talking about development, kind of an aggressive development path I guess, from, as I understand it, some of the women you've been with which were very confident and very sexual when you met them in their 30s or whenever it was, and they described how they evolved when they were younger to you. So I guess we're talking about a minority who…

[David Shade]: No.

[Angel Donovan]: No?

[David Shade]: No. God, no. No.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[David Shade]: No, no, no. No, this is not a minority. You have to realize, these… Alright, we're talking… you and I are students of pickup, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: But we have to set that aside for a minute. Look at what’s really going on inside women. Let's say you really have a key to what’s going on inside. You don’t have the thin veil of trying to get past the opener and trying to get attraction…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Let's assume we actually really know a woman and she is revealing her true self.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Shade]: Alright, what goes on, there are a lot more out there than you think. It's actually a majority, certainly in Western culture, alright?

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, let's put a number on it. Sixty percent.

[David Shade]: Yeah, at least.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay.

[David Shade]: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're sexually confident. I mean, they're confident in their sexuality. Of course, they all think their butt’s too big.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: They are all extremely self-conscious.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: They think their feet’s too big. They're girls, okay? Girls are self-conscious. But girls are also sexually very confident, I should say very much in touch with their sexuality in a lot of regards. Women are highly sexual creatures, far much so than men, and we don’t give them enough credit for that. We have to actually admire that. In fact, we can leverage that. I don't know how to do it in pickup, but I sure as hell know how to leverage it in a relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Okay? Just like, go read the book called My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday, which was a runaway bestseller. And that book is one perverted clusterfuck, man.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[David Shade]: You wouldn't believe how sick these women are. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Just for the readers’ benefit, so the book talks about the fantasies and dreams that a lot of different women have had, and Nancy Friday interviewed many, many people, many women from different backgrounds, and she put it all into that book. And there's actually another book, a second or maybe a third book going along the same lines and, yeah, they're pretty extreme. They're pretty extreme fantasies, and it's worth reading to kind of shock yourself into what women fantasize about, because I think you need a certain amount of shocking to get your head round how different it is from us.

[David Shade]: Yeah. Yeah, how very different they are from… how much more advanced sexually they are from us.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Shade]: You know, men download porn pretty easy, but women read 400-page romance novels. And then by reaching Nancy Friday’s My Secret Garden, it was a real eye-opener for me. I, “Wow, these women are sick perverted freaks! I love it!” And then look at the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey, which is about heavy dominance. But it's also about the woman kind of running the show too, which is why it's total bullshit.

But anyway, then in the late seventies, a book came out called 9-1/2 Weeks. It was later made into a movie, which is a fucking drag. The movie is lame compared to the book. The book is fucking scary. It's about this really hardcore dom who totally doms the shit out of this woman who is a midlevel executive at a large corporation in New York.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: You know, up and rising educated professional, but at night she goes home and gets totally dominated by this hardcore dom. And it was a New York Times bestseller, number one for a long time. It sold millions and millions of copies.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: It just goes to show just how powerful this stuff is for women, how very advanced women are sexually, far more so than men.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Sex is a much bigger deal for women than it is for men. Now, I don't know how to convert that into how you can leverage it in pickup, but I sure know how to leverage that in an ongoing relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. So, you know, we're talking around basically the sexual territory, what is the reality of sex, right? And how women are. So what would you say is a healthy attitude for a guy to have—I know you talk about this a lot—and an unhealthy attitude for a guy to have towards sex and towards women if he wants to have good sex and promote…?

[David Shade]: Yeah, okay. Right. Do not be intimidated by the fact that she is sexual. And that means you have to be comfortable with your own sexuality in order to be comfortable with her sexuality.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Definitely, definitely embrace the fact that she is a sexual creature. Celebrate it. Make it a big deal.

[Angel Donovan]: Can you give us like a concrete example of a scenario, kind of bring that to life?

[David Shade]: Yeah. Definitely a very important thing is, you know, we as guys, [laughs] when we get in the community, right? We all started as AFC nice guys who respect women, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Shade]: Because that's what society, social programming, taught us to do. Okay. But women are sexual creatures, so I tell guys, respect the fact that she wants to be sexual. Respect the fact that she wants you to talk dirty to her. I know you think that it'll be disrespectful to talk dirty to her, but actually you are respecting her wishes.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Okay? Definitely learn to talk dirty in the bedroom. And that's just… you can just start by narrating. Definitely leveraging the fact that she is a highly sexual creature. Turn the tables. Like what we do a lot in pickup is we turn the tables. We blame her for trying to pick us up. “Oh, you're just saying that because you want to get in my pants,” you know, and they laugh. Do the same thing in a relationship.

Here's one other thing that I did. There was a girl I dated for three years, two-and-a-half years, and on a Wednesday she had invited me over to dinner. So I went over to her house, we had a lovely dinner, we sat on the sofa, had a nice conversation. And then I got up, I said, “Okay, thanks for dinner!” I started walking like I was walking out. She, “What? Where are you going?” I said, “What?” She laughed, said, “What are you doing?”

I went over to her and I said, “What? Do you need servicing?” And she laughed. She said, “Well, maybe I do.” I said, “Well, let's see. Have you masturbated this week?” She said, “Yes.” “Hmm,” I said, “have you thought about sex at least three times today?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “Hmm, let me see here,” and I pinched her nipples through her dress and her nipples started getting hard. I said, “Hmm, your nipples betray you.” She laughed. And then I lifted up her dress slightly and touched her panties and I say, “Does it feel good when I do this?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “Ooh, you do need servicing,” and I took her into the bedroom.” [Laughs]

What I did is I turned the tables. I'm not the one who wanted sex. She's the one who needed sex.

Another thing that I did is on another night she said, “I really want to see you tonight. Can you come over? I’ll cook you dinner.” So I replied… you know, I don't know if I replied or if I went over there. I went over there and I had dinner with her, and then after dinner while we were standing up, I kissed her and I said, “You know what, darling? You cooked me dinner, I’ll service you. It's only fair.” And I took her in the bedroom. So again I had turned the tables, and I knew I could get away with that because I was giving her orgasms. So she always wanted to have sex, so I was turning the tables on it.

Now, another example of really taking advantage of the fact that they're sexual is one thing I did with her one night, we were lying naked in the bed and I was just talking softly to her and I was lightly rubbing her clitoris, and I said, “I want you to tell me a fantasy that you've never told anybody before in your life.”

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: She, “Mmm…” She was kind of hesitating, so I stopped rubbing her clitoris. I said, “If you don’t tell me, I'm going to stop rubbing.” So I started rubbing again. I said, “I want you to tell me a fantasy you've never told anybody in your life.” And of course, while I'm rubbing her fant… [laughs] while I'm rubbing clitoris—I'm already screwing up the words—while I'm rubbing her clitoris, of course, in the context of heightened sexual arousal, a woman’s mind gets dirtier and dirtier, and she hesitated but she finally started to reveal it. But she wasn’t really giving me the details. I said, “I'm going to stop rubbing unless you tell me.” And I coaxed a really bizarre fantasy out of her.

And then what I did is I started narrating, “Okay, you are now with that couple. The woman is doing this to you,” while I was rubbing her clitoris. And she closed her eyes, and I started narrating the fantasy back to her while I rubbed her clitoris, and I said, “And I am telling you as if I'm standing next to her while all this is going on,” which of course in her fantasy I was because I was her boyfriend at the time.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And when you're her lover at the time, you're always involved in the fantasy, even if you're off to the side telling her what to do. Alright, okay, the woman is doing this, the man’s doing that, and I'm telling you you cannot come yet. “You cannot come yet.” I also had to do that [laughs] to extend her heightened arousal, right? So I could finish the fantasy. And I described the fantasy to her while I was rubbing her clitoris, while she was right on the edge of having an orgasm for an extended period, and I was actually narrating it right there next to her ear, and also describing that I'm standing there in the scene telling her what to do.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And I said, “And now they do this, and now I tell you, show me how good you can come for me now. Come now.” And she had a massive explosive orgasm. And of course, I kept reinforcing, “Come now, come now, come for me, come like you're a good girl,” all that stuff, planting a whole bunch of anchors, NLP anchors, or hypnotic suggestions, which further strengthens that I can use that at a later date. And what I have done is I have intimately associated myself to that fantasy and I have… I have gone even deeper into her sexuality. I'm even deeper entwined into her sexuality.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. It's kind of like you're building sexual intimacy and rapport, and I noticed the first thing was that you were getting her aroused before you talk about fantasies because, you know, making sure that she's in the right emotional state to tell you her real fantasies, you know, the real things that she's thinking about, and so, as we were talking about earlier, that you get to reality, you get to the truth. Because if we're sitting in an office or if we're sitting out in a café with a girl and we ask her what her fantasy is, that's really not a situation where she's going to actually tell you what her greatest fantasy is.

[David Shade]: Right. Right. You know, when you first ask a girl what her… for one of her fantasies, she'll say, “Oh, you know, I’d like to do it in a public place,” whoopty fucking doo!

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[David Shade]: Every woman has that fantasy. So what? Yeah, they're going to give a really tame one.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[David Shade]: By then I had been dating her for a couple of months by then…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: …and we were pretty intimidate by then. And yeah, this is true, I leveraged the heightened arousal, and she also knew that she wasn't going to get an orgasm until she gave me the truth. [Laughs] You know, you kind of have them by the short hairs, you know what I mean? [Laughs] They have to come up with something good. And you know, by then she was happy to share that with me. I just did it in a situation which made it really enjoyable for her and really associated me deeply with her fantasy and with her sexuality.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And I did a number of things all at the same time. I also further planted the “come now” command…

[Angel Donovan]: And so there what’s going on is you're kind of building a story, you know, the sexual aspect of the relationship with each other…

[David Shade]: Oh yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: You're building this, you know, the words you kind of say together, right? Like in all relationships, as they evolve, you know, when we start them and we learn more about each other, we kind of build on who we were as separate people and we build our own routines that are both of ours, right? And things we say to each other that we both understand. It's kind of like our world, right? And it seems like that's really what you're doing there. It's building sexual rapport. It's extending the relationship, building a sexual world and common understanding in our world in terms of sex as well.

[David Shade]: Yes, that's very true. You're definitely deeply building the intimacy very strongly. And what this does is it massively, massively accelerates her responsiveness to you.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: It's really not about orgasms. Orgasms are the waypoints, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: They're just markers along the way.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: What is of utmost importance is responsiveness. Yeah, orgasms have to be there, but ultimately it's about responsiveness. It's about orgasms on command, it's about vaginal orgasms on command, I could go on and on and on…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: …but being able to turn her on instantly with one phrase, get her instantly dripping wet. Alter responsiveness, that's what it's ultimately about. And that's what she is addicted to. That's what every woman dreams of, and when she finds it she's like totally helpless and lost in it and addicted to it, and she loves it and can't have enough of it. And that's what builds strong relationships.

[Angel Donovan]: Totally. Would you say that like… we're talking about the responsiveness of the women, and I like how you put that, and also it is not entirely orgasm, right? You said, you know…

[David Shade]: No, orgasm…

[Angel Donovan]: I mean, if she gets wet, she's responsive…

[David Shade]: No, orgasms is just a way, one way.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. There could be several different levels of responsiveness, obviously. So she's getting wet and showing other sexual signals, then that's all good too, right?

[David Shade]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: Of course, you know, orgasms are great. How about from the male side? Is it important for him to be responsive to the woman?

[David Shade]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: As this is sex, it takes two, so you know, from the male side, what’s he doing? What does he have to think about in terms of his responsiveness? Is there anything that he could be doing wrong or…?

[David Shade]: Well, I can speak for me and my top clients, my top clients that I speak to on a regular basis in my online forum.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And myself and my top clients, we get off big time on our women being responsive to us. We get off on it big time. Does that make us responsive to her? You could call it that. But we as men, we lead. We take all responsibility for everything sexual. So, you know, can you call it responsive to her? I guess you could in that when she gets turned on and we choose to become turned on, we have no problem getting an erection, because we're really turned on by her. So I guess you could say that's responsive to her.

But because we're so in tune with her, we can pound away for a very extended time because we're doing it… because we want to do a whole bunch of stuff in that one particular sexual episode, so Does that make us less responsive to her? I think it makes us more responsive to her. I think it makes us, yeah, I guess you could say more responsive to her in that we're more intimate with her, we're more sexually connected to her. We feel more sexual ourselves.

And it is true that when we're with a woman who’s very responsive to us, we're very into her, it's no problem getting an erection, and it's also no problem lasting a long time because we're really into her and we have a number of things planned that we want to accomplish that night. So yeah, you could say it does make us more responsive to her. I don’t really use those words but, yeah, you could say that.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. Okay, great.

[David Shade]: Mm-hmm, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Now, let's move on a little bit to, one of your products is called Select Women Wisely, and this is really about not necessarily thinking about marriage or whatever as I understand it, but in this book here you're talking about the importance of selecting women for both of your enjoyment. Of course, if you're going to get married at some point, to do it the right way, but are you talking like about selecting women wisely, selecting the right women for in terms of sexuality also? You know, we've been talking about orgasms and sexuality. Do you think to have a good sexual relationship you have to start from picking the right girl, or is it possible to start from pretty much any girl and kind of work towards a great sexual relationship?

[David Shade]: Okay, it is true that a woman who is best for a relationship is also going to be the best for having orgasms, right? For a lot of reasons. Now, really the first thing I worked on, tried to figure out after my divorce, is what did I do wrong? Why did that not work out? I tried to find out, what did I do wrong? And it turns out, after reading a lot of psychology books, I started to learn about how people think about themselves, how people think about themselves and their relationships with other people. And it turned out that some people are better cut out for it than others. Some people feel better about themselves than others, and people who feel good about themselves make for much more successful relationships.

Well, I looked at my ex-wife, you know what? It's funny, she actually didn't feel good about herself. She did not… she was smoking hot, but she was always asking me, “Does my butt look big in these pants?” I wanted to say, “Shut the fuck up, you're smoking hot!” [Laughs] Women would die to look like you. But she didn't feel good about herself—there are a number of other examples—which is surprising that she was so orgasmic.

So I thought, you know what? My college sweetheart really felt really good about herself. And the women that I had dated in my 20s before I got married, they felt really good about themselves and we had great relationships, and they were probably really good women to marry, but gosh darn, you know, just I wasn’t in love with them. So I move on.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: And the women that I dated after my divorce, interestingly, the ones who really felt good about themselves really had a healthy mental attitude, they were the ones I had the best relationships with, and it turns out the best sex.

Now, just because a woman is emotionally healthy and really feels good about herself and would make for a good relationship doesn’t mean she's orgasmic yet. Like one woman that I dated after my divorce, actually the woman that I discovered the deep spot on, she was extremely emotionally healthy, well-rounded, educated young woman, great gal. Would have made a great wife, just a wonderful, wonderful human being, and just a wonderful person, felt great about herself, her family, everybody in her life, other people. But she had never had an orgasm in her life, not one single orgasm in her life.

Well, believe it or not, took like nine dates with her to finally get sexual, and I couldn't give her an orgasm. And I go, what? I couldn't give her clitoral orgasm, couldn't give her a vaginal orgasm. I didn't know what I was doing. And one night I just, “Well, I’ll just try finding something that feels good,” and that's when I accidentally discovered the deep spot, and all of a sudden she responded very powerfully to that. And I kept rubbing that, and all of a sudden she had this massive orgasm, the first orgasm of her entire life, and it was a vaginal orgasm.

Well, from that night on, everything worked. She easily had clitoral orgasm, easily had vaginal orgasms in intercourse. Everything worked, and we had a great relationship for nine months, fabulous, fabulous relationship. What a wonderful girl. But we ended up going our separate ways. The massive age difference didn't help. But great girl.

So there's a lot to how a woman thinks about herself. So I started researching that, and I ran across a concept called self-esteem. Now, a lot of people have the wrong impression of what self-esteem is. People think self-esteem is ego, is confidence. No, not at all.

Self-esteem is what you think of yourself. Do you feel good about yourself? Some people do, some people don’t, and then there's the whole gray scale in between. Self-esteem means two things. Number one, do you believe that happiness is normal and right for you? And number two, do you believe that you are equipped to deal with the normal challenges of life?

The highly respected, generally accepted definition of self-esteem comes from Nathaniel Branden, PhD, psychiatrist—correction, psychologist—who actually dated Ayn Rand at one time. He's now in his mid-70s, married this hot mid-30s woman. [Laughs] Got to tip my hand, man. The guy knows what he's talking about. He has dedicated his life to the study of self-esteem. I can highly recommend him.

So I studied that, and I began to see the association in the women that I had dated and the women that I had dated that I did not have successful relationships with, and my ex-wife, really had to do with the level of self-esteem, that the women who had a healthy self-esteem, who really felt good about themselves, really believed that happiness was normal and right for them, well, we had great relationships. But women such as my ex-wife, she actually did not believe that happiness was normal and right for her.

Of course, a person doesn’t know this consciously, right? But it seems like when she had happiness, she had a great life. She went and sabotaged it because it was not natural for her. What was natural for her was drama, so she got with a bad boy that gave her lots of drama.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so if we're looking for a relationship, you're saying we should look for a woman with high self-esteem?

[David Shade]: Yeah, we should, but we have to understand…

[Angel Donovan]: How about if we're looking for…

[David Shade]: It's very, very critically important, Angel, we have to understand what high self-esteem is. It's critically important. Don’t go looking for confidence. Don’t go looking for ego. That's the wrong place. Find out what high self-esteem is, the true definition, and understand it. It really is a chore. It is truly a chore to understand truly what self-esteem is, but when you do, then you'll start identifying it very easily out there.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay. Well, I completely agree with you, you know, on the self-esteem topic, and I think it's not talked about enough at all, and I also think it can take a while to get your head around exactly what that word means, or that phrase, I mean phrase, in terms of when you're looking at women. So what I want to do here is also like just kind of make the link back to sex. Do you think high self-esteem is connected to you differentiating between with women that you've had great sex and other women that you haven't had great sex? Do you think there's anything that plays between that from the girl’s perspective and also our perspective, right? We have a self-esteem level, the girl has a self-esteem level. How do they relate to each other?

[David Shade]: Yeah, absolutely. Let's take the one between a woman’s level of self-esteem and her ability to be orgasmic.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Again, orgasms are just a waypoint, but they have to be there. [Laughs] They have to be there for a successful relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: Yup.

[David Shade]: And I can go and point out a lot of unsuccessful relationships that didn't have orgasms and whatnot. Anyway, it is absolutely true that… remember I said that female sexuality is entirely mental? All women are equipped with the hardware to have orgasms, but a lot aren't and it's all mental, and it really… and I didn't mention it down, but now that we've talked about self-esteem, it really has a lot, an awful lot to do with her level of self-esteem.

Because the signals are going to go up the spinal cord and into the brain, but if a woman does not believe that happiness is normal and right for her, she's not going to believe that she deserves pleasure, alright? She's going to start feeling this pleasure, she's going, “No, this is not right. I cannot handle this. I do not deserve this.” And she'll start sabotaging it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: But a woman who believes that happiness is normal and right for her, she'll feel this pleasure, she'll go, “Oh, I like this! I want to feel more of this. Bring it on! I'm going to celebrate myself.” And the pleasure increases to the point of explosion, you know, overwhelming helplessness explosion, and she gets to experience this amazing, incredible pleasure. For a woman who has a healthy self-esteem, she will welcome that. For a woman who has a very low self-esteem, she will sabotage, she will push it away. She will not allow it to happen.

Now, you talked about our self-esteem as men. This is very true. Our self-esteem as men is very important. If there's anything that I want to do in my products is for men to really feel like a man, damn it. When I'm with a woman that is very responsive to me and, as we discussed tonight, I am responsive to her, I really feel like a man. You know, she's doing all these horny, naughty, slutty, sexual things with me, that makes me feel like a man. I really get to enjoy everything about being a man. But I have to be very comfortable with her sexuality too. I have to feel good about myself in order to feel good about her and in order for her… to help her feel good about herself.

If we as men have issues with our sexuality or how we feel about ourselves, it's going to manifest itself in our sexuality. In fact, that's where it's really going to manifest itself. It's like, that's where it really comes out. If we do not believe that happiness is normal and right for us, all sorts of weird shit’s going to happen. Our subconscious mind is going to sabotage it.

An erection, an orgasm, is completely controlled by the subconscious mind. We cannot will those things to happen. Very much under the control of the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind is the final judge, jury and executioner when it comes to erections and orgasms, and if our subconscious mind is not feeling good about this, it's going to sabotage it, and it can do that in a number of ways. One, it is just not going to let you get a hard-on.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: It says, “No way. You are not going to have sex with this woman. I'm not going to give you an erection.”

[Angel Donovan]: So there you're saying that's a clue, right?

[David Shade]: Oh, that's one clue.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[David Shade]: Other things can be that the subconscious mind will sabotage things and make sure that she doesn’t enjoy the sex by making the guy come too early. The subconscious mind’s going to sabotage it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: If with don’t feel good about ourselves, it's going to manifest itself in sexuality. It can manifest itself in a lot of ways. Like guys go out there and they get really good at picking up girls and bringing them home, but they don’t end up closing the deal. A lot of guys get phone numbers but they never call the girl, because their subconscious mind’s saying, “Yo, you're one hell of a pickup artist, but there's no fucking way I'm going to let you fuck her. No, I'm not going to let you call her, no way.” All sorts of stuff goes on.

We have to understand that human sexuality is normal, is right. It's okay. It's natural. And we have to be comfortable with that. There are a lot of fucked up things that happen when we grow up, and then we have all social programming on top of that that fucks it up even more. We have to get okay with ourselves. We have to work on ourselves.

That's why I love the pickup community. It's about self-development. We go out there and we find out, what do we need to work on? Because when we're learning pickup, we're actually learning, what is it about ourselves that we need to work on?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[David Shade]: The true pickup artists, they're not out to manipulate women. They want to understand, what do women really want? What do we have to give them that they really want? And what’s keeping me from doing that? A lot of guys in the pickup community, they realize, oh, shit, they finally realize they have an anger issue, or they realize, oh, they’ve got issues with sexuality. They actually don’t feel normal and natural about sexuality, and they end up sabotaging themselves. Or they realize they don’t feel good about themselves or they don’t feel like, oh, a woman’s going to like them. Or they have issues with sexuality and they finally pull a girl home, then they can't get it up, or they get into a relationship but they keep coming early.

So what we do in the seduction community and in what I am teaching my clients is we're working on ourselves. We're not trying to change girls. We want to understand them. We want to give them what they want.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: We have to understand what… but we are basically working on ourselves. So it's all about personal development.

[Angel Donovan]: Yup. I mean, that's what we're all about at Dating Skills Review. We think it's all about self-development. And the process, as you've said, it's got an innate feedback mechanism. When you go out there and you're meeting girls or you're trying to start new relationships, you're going to get a lot more feedback than you've ever got before before you started on this journey, and all of that feedback is basically going to give you ideas about where you have to go to next, where you're falling down, what things do you need to work on to improve yourself. And so it really is for everyone who goes through this journey. It's a great self-awareness journey and it's something that typically ends up building on their whole lives, not just dating and women and so on.

[David Shade]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: So, man, I want to throw something out there which some people might find a little bit counterintuitive – promiscuity, right? So you talked a little bit about promiscuity in one of your books, and there you're saying that promiscuity is not the result of high self-esteem. Can you just talk briefly about that? Because I think a lot of people think that promiscuous people, like a girl who goes and sees lots of guys, is confident, and that's why she does it, right? And maybe a guy who does the same thing. So what are your ideas on that?

[David Shade]: There are a lot of ways to look at promiscuity, and promiscuity and self-esteem, [01:09:00] how do they go in that? Well, first of all, let's look at the very-low-self-esteem woman who does not feel good about herself, but if anybody were to look at her, they go, “Why the fuck do you not feel good about yourself? You're smoking hot!”

She's going to look for external validation because she is unable to give herself validation. She can't. She cannot self-validate because she doesn’t have the self-esteem to do it.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: So she looks for external validation. She is a bottomless pit of emotional need and validation-seeking, and she will get her temporary drug hit by scoring a guy. It proves to her that she's validated because some guy tried to have sex with her. So there's that going on.

Then, let's look at the entire other end of the spectrum. Let's go to some woman who has a high self-esteem and really feels good about herself, has absolutely zero interest in external validation and gets really perturbed if somebody tries to give it to her, okay?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Who knows how many people she's sleeping with, but she's not doing it for validation. But you will probably find that it is not as many men. And you'll probably find that those women, they will tend to gravitate to a man that they can feel very good with, and they will experience all of their sexuality with that one man. So typically, bottom line, women of high self-esteem—depends on how you mean promiscuous. Do you mean the number of men that she's currently sleeping with or the number of men she's been with? A woman of high self-esteem is going to select men not on numbers but on quality, the quality of the relationship that she has with him, but she may have gone through a number of men to get there. A woman of low self-esteem is interested in that regular drug hit of scoring a guy.

I have seen women of healthy self-esteem get divorced and then get another guy. I rarely see them cheating on their husband. But women of low self-esteem, she'll cheat on her husband because she doesn’t want to be alone. She'll find a new guy before she leaves her husband. But a woman of high self-esteem, she has no problem being alone. She's so validated. She'll leave her husband, and then after some healing time, then she'll go look for a new lover. So it depends what you mean by promiscuous. I've slept with high self-esteem women who have been with a lot of men…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I thought that was something interesting to bring up and that would give our listeners something to think about a little bit, you know, promiscuity, loyalty, cheating, and how it relates to self-esteem and, you know, selecting someone interesting for themselves.

[David Shade]: Oh, yeah. Well, cheating. Cheating. Alright. Women of high self-esteem, they are not cheaters like a woman of low self-esteem. Women of high self-esteem, now, they’ll tell a guy get lost, and then she'll go look for a new guy, after she spends a little bit of time by herself. A woman of low self-esteem, she'll cheat because she doesn’t want to be alone. She wants to make sure she's got a new guy before she leaves a guy she's with. So if you're talking about cheating, yeah, you can much more trust a woman of healthy self-esteem, but that doesn’t mean you're going to keep her. That only means she's not going to cheat on you, but that does not mean you're going to keep her.

[Angel Donovan]: Of course. [Laughs]

[David Shade]: That’s a completely different thing. [Laughs]

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, and that's where working with ourselves comes in. Alright, now, at the end of all of these podcast sessions, we ask a question, the same question for everyone. What are the top three things someone should do if they want to get good with women as quickly as possible? What are those top three things they should focus on?

[David Shade]: Well, one thing came to mind when we were talking about learning pickup and self-development and learning a lot by talking to a lot of girls. I would say find yourself a coach, a coach that you trust, a coach that you really believe in, a coach who you think he feels good about himself, and go learn from him. Because you can talk to a lot of girls, you could be doing the same thing, the wrong thing, over and over again. You need a coach who’s an outside observer.

You know, there's the old saying, if you know what you want to accomplish, find out the price and pay it. That's good advice.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, what does that one mean? So that's number two. First one, get a coach you believe in.

[David Shade]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: Number two is, you know, find out the price and pay it. What does that mean?

[David Shade]: Find out what you need to do to accomplish your goals, and then find out how much it costs, and then fucking pay it, because that's the way to attaining your goals. And I can think of a few things I have accomplished in my time and I figured out, alright, what do I have to do? What’s the cost? Pay it and just do it.

The first was getting my undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering. Okay, it's going to cost me a shitload of money. I'm going to have to work, and I'm going to have to take four years of calculus and physics and all that shit.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: Well, okay, that's the price, I guess I have to pay it. And I paid it and I got my degree.

Starting my own business. Well, actually, [laughs] it wasn’t a dream of mine to start my own business. I just wrote this cool book and I wanted guys to know about it. I’ll share it with guys. I’ll sell it for 30 bucks. I’ll make some beer money, man. I really didn't think about business.

But it was actually years later I thought, “You know what? I'm tired of engineering. I want to do this full-time. I've got to turn this into a business. Alright, what’s it going to take?” So I found out I have to hire a marketing manager because I don't know shit about marketing. I have to pay him a salary. I have to pay him a huge chunk of income. Well, I have to do it. Alright, I’ll do it. And he told me what I needed to do, and I went out and I just did it. A few years later, I was actually able to quit my day job and do this full-time.

And now that I have raised a family and my two sons are independent and they're both happily married now, I'm independent, I'm away from the day job, my business is going great, I now have the time to actually finally learn pickup! So I decided, what’s it going to cost me to really get really fucking good at this game that I dabbled in for years, but only half-assed so I'm not getting anywhere? I have to get serious about that. What is it going to cost me? And I found out [laughs] it's a lot. [Laughs] Because I went to the top, I got the highest level of education, and yeah, it's costing me, but I'm getting there. Things are working out, man. It's working out.

[Angel Donovan]: Good, good. Alright, what’s the third thing?

[David Shade]: Now, the third thing, find out what it's going to take to improve your own self-esteem and do it. It's all about improving yourself, especially your self-esteem, because nothing’s going to happen until you feel good about yourself. If you don’t, everything’s going to get sabotaged. But if you feel good about yourself, everything, everything, is so much more enjoyable.

[Angel Donovan]: Would you turn that around and ask yourself, what makes me feel bad about myself in my life to find out what to work on?

[David Shade]: Well, there's probably a clue. I don't know if it's something you'd want to dwell on, but I am not the expert in that. I'm not a therapist.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[David Shade]: But I think a great place to start would be reading the book called The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. And then, find a therapist who subscribes to the concept of self-esteem, because there are a lot of useless therapists out there. There are a few really good ones. Get with them, and they’ll tell you how to go down the road of developing a healthy self-esteem.

And nobody has a perfect self-esteem. It's like perfect health. Nobody has perfect health. As we engineers would say, you reach it asymptotically. Everybody can work on their self-esteem, and I'm continually working on it. God knows I have things to improve on, okay? But I'm very fortunate that I had a wonderful childhood, had a lovely family. My parents were wonderful people. I'm very lucky in that regard. I was just raised to be an AFC nice guy. [Laughs] But we know how to fix that, right? [Laughs] But even still, I am always working on my self-esteem.

So that would have to be the third thing, is find out what it takes to develop your self-esteem because self-validation is where it's at, man. It's got nothing to do with how many girls sleep with you. It's all self-validation. That's where it's really at. When you're self-validated, you're going to enjoy every girl that you're with. Even the ones you don’t end up getting with, you're still going to enjoy them.

[Angel Donovan]: That's great as a final note. Thank you very much for that, David. And it's been great having you on the show.

[David Shade]: Thank you very much for inviting me, Angel. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed talking to you, man.

[Angel Donovan]: Great. Alright, man. Well, take care, and I’ll speak to you soon.

[David Shade]: Thank you very much, Angel.