Ep. #16 Journey to Becoming a Better Man with Mr. M

[Mr. M]: Hey Angel, how you doing?

[Angel Donovan]: Alright. Great to have you here, man.

[Mr. M]: Great to be here.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. So I understand like basically the purpose of the interview today is twofold. First of all, Love Systems is just about to bring out a new book and Mr. M is one of the authors, so we’re going to get some insights into that and what it’s all about. And secondly, because we haven’t had Mr. M here before, is just to get to know him as a person, as a dating coach, so you guys can get to know him, where he's come from and see kind of if he has a dating lifestyle that you’re kind of looking for and things along those lines, so it’s something you’d like to get to know more about. So Mr. M, it’d be great if we could start this by hearing a bit about the new book that you’re bringing out.

[Mr. M]: Okay, no problem. Yeah, the book is called The Ultimate Guide to Phone and Text Game and it was written by myself, Mr. M, and Braddock, who is another lead instructor with Love Systems. And the book is about a year and a half in the making, and it came from the realization that you can’t go home with a girl every single night. Well, you can go home with the girl that you want, that you think you want every single night. You have to because of logistical reasons or whatever else take her phone number, and what myself and Braddock figured out was that it’s a really important skill set for us to be able to get the type of quality of girl that we wanted to be able to be extremely effective on the phone, to be able to cause massive attraction and to increase that close rate to really high levels on the phone. That's exactly what the book covers.

So it goes through a lot of basic stuff on phone and text game, and then it goes through some of the more advanced stuff. The basic stuff is like first contact, whether to call or to text, what to say in the first text, and then looking through the different types of interactions that you have over the phone with different types of girls. We go through each of the categories, you know, girls who really like you, girls who you have to work a little bit more for and how to do that. And then it goes through how to build attraction through the phone with a really, really powerful phone and text game technique.

And then the more advanced stuff is like sexualization and what we call like addiction by way of the telephone. That's a little bit darker, but it’s really powerful stuff in terms of… I mean, I’m sure you’ve all been there when you’re waiting in front of your phone for a girl to call you and you’re just looking at your phone or you just feel your phone in your pocket because she hasn’t texted you or she hasn’t called you. That is actually one of the highest levels of what we call addiction or phone game attraction, and you can actually do that… There are a lot of benefits to it through maintaining the correct mindset because it’s very easy for you to create that sort of attraction where a girl is basically waiting for your phone call and wants to hear from you. We go into things like that, and there's sexualization over the phone, and meet up strategies.

I mean it’s a really comprehensive book, over 150 pages, and this is going to be one of the first actual products that myself and Braddock have brought out, and it was very important for us to… Because we’ve got a fleet of stuff coming out this year, and it’s very important for us to bring out not only a very high-quality product but we want to actually create completely breakthrough revolutionary stuff that makes a concrete contribution to the community because the dating community has given up so much in terms of just the improvement in my quality of life that it was important to me not just to rehash old advice but to really innovate and create new stuff, and I’m really proud to say that I still find that we do that and will do more before I retire, which I will do pretty soon.

[Angel Donovan]: Well, that's interesting stuff. You’ve brought up a lot of different conversation points there. I don’t know if you just mentioned right now, but I think you did, that you mentioned to me earlier, how long the book was. It’s like 150 pages, did you say?

[Mr. M]: Yeah, it’s over 150 pages. You've get the beta version out now, because we haven’t launched yet. So, yeah, the beta version is over 150 pages.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow.

[Mr. M]: [Laughs] And that's not including any of the bonus books or some of the last-minute adjustments that we may make even if it’s like 95% done right now.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, great.

[Mr. M]: But it’s not only… I mean, as much as the book is about phone and text game, like all game, if you get your mindset and your inner game worked out, then you don’t have to think so much about what you’re doing in every moment, you can just act off the reaction screen, which is why mindset is important to create attraction. And so in the book, because there are like different tactics and there are a lot of examples of different phone exchanges, failed phone exchanges, very, very successful phone exchanges, and we analyze a lot of them, but we also go into the mindset of successful phone and text game, which is very similar to the mindset for successfully creating attraction within women. So all of that is really comprehensively covered in the book.

[Angel Donovan]: Awesome stuff. And I just want to get one bit clear about it, like it has examples as well as… Because it sounded like it tells you a lot about what to do. Do you also have like examples of exact texts and stuff like that in it?

[Mr. M]: Yeah. I mean, there's a funny story of me actually sitting down for like half an hour and then typing out a text from by BlackBerry, and then me getting so tired of typing out this text that I gave it to Braddock to type that, and then him getting so tired that he gave it to another instructor.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: I mean, that's what we call a long fuse, a girl who is… This girl was a model and I ended up sleeping with her but, God, it took a long time because, you know, she was worth it, because she was super-hot and super-intelligent. And so I did that using long fuse phone and text game, which is basically when you’re not getting much compliance and she’s not hooking very much, you don’t know what to do, you don’t know if she likes you, you know, and how to turn that situation around. And I think, just looking at it now, that transcript is over four pages and it shows you exactly what I did and the wrong text is used.

I mean, if you open the book at a random page, I’m pretty sure you’ll see examples and the principles behind them in terms of a probability. Like I’m just flipping through it right now and I’ve flipped through four pages, and three of the four have actual examples. So yeah, I mean, we created this to be able to be usable. As much as we wanted it to be breakthrough, Savoy would not let us create a book that was not really, really highly usable to people who had already got the Love Systems Magic Bullets book.

[Angel Donovan]: Yes, and I know that it’s basically the only book to come out on this specific theme, so I’m looking forward to seeing it and reviewing it, and I’m sure it’s going to have some interesting stuff there. So I’m looking forward to that.

[Mr. M]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Well, like, you just popped out there towards the end of when you were talking like saying you were going to retire from dating coaching. Before we get into that, it would be good to like kind of know how you got into dating coaching in the first place and like how long you’ve been in it. As I understand it, like how old are you now?

[Mr. M]: Twenty-seven.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Just to give people a little bit of a background. And like just go through some background on how you got into learning about dating, what were you doing just before that, and basically what you’ve been doing while you’ve been in dating coaching, how you’ve evolved, and what’s going on with this retirement stuff?

[Mr. M]: Sure. Well, I mean the story is, not that I like to advertise it much but it is a sort of rags-to-riches story, which seems to be a pretty consistent theme through my life. I know you and I, Angel, were talking about this before, and it’s interesting that my family was from the slums in Eastern Asia and I’ve come a long way from there. But it’s in the same way, you know, I grew up as a small Asian kid in a very alpha-male society in Sidney, Australia. And Australia, if you’ve ever been, you’ll know they’ve got some incredible naturals there. And I was a good kid, you know. I got good grades and I worked really hard at school, I participated in sports and stuff, and I was a pretty happy kid. But then as I hit the teenage years, I started to become interested in girls but none of them decided to become interested in me, and that was really crushing for me.

In hindsight, actually, now that I am where I am, I’m actually pretty happy. At least I wasn’t distracted and I put my energy in my studies. So I really buried myself in my studies. I thought to myself a few times that I wasn’t meant to be good with girls and I was better at getting involved with intelligent things. I mean, it wasn’t a good place to be mentally, but it was a way that I could keep happy while I was growing up.

And during the university years, I hadn’t kissed a girl till I was I think 20, and then I didn’t sleep with a girl till I was 21, which is pretty horrible, and a couple of times in that period I got my heart completely shattered by girls. And when I gave the example before of the addiction in phone and text game, there were numerous times I remember, numerous times where I would just look at my phone waiting and hoping for a text from a specific girl. I mean, I came from a pretty dark place and Sheriff helped me get out of that. And I think you’re friends with Sheriff. I think you guys lived in Thailand together.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah.

[Mr. M]: Yeah. Sheriff said to me, he goes, “It’s a principle of emotional leverage.” He goes, “Look, a lot of the guys who get really good are the guys that came from such scarcity before that they compensated and they’re willing to build their dating skills up to levels which made sure that what they experienced in the past would never happen again.”

[Angel Donovan]: Right, it’s kind of like the “overcompensation for your insecurity” principle.

[Mr. M]: Exactly, yeah. Interesting you should say that, Angel, I was reading a book recently on billionaires, and they talked about that in a way I hadn't seen before, I definitely recommend it to you…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: …but it went through the childhood of only self-made billionaires and it said that most of them came from a place of scarcity or lack. It went through the different principles behind it, but most of them did come from a place of scarcity or lack…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: …not, interestingly, all the time from money, although that wasn't all there was there. A lot of it was from being social outcasts or low social status. But in any case, the principle remains the same. It creates some sort of emotional leverage. So I have the emotional leverage, and then one day I came across the David DeAngelo advertisements to improve your dating. I thought they were complete bullshit, and I thought they were just trying to make money off me and that sort of thing. And what ended up happening was a friend of mine, my cousin actually, sent me an email saying this is what happened to you when I totally messed up with this girl and I couldn’t concentrate and I was shattered and I was depressed, which was when I was about I think 21 or 22. And he sent me this email, and as soon as I opened the email and read it, I called him, I was like, “Dude, you are an absolute genius. This is exactly what happened to me.” And he said, “Well, you know, those ideas that you’ve been giving me shit about, well, that's from them.”

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: And I figured things out and it was actually legitimately behind some of my deepest insecurities.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: …and I was insane. I mean, my mind, I would consider myself to have a fairly brilliant mind in some respects, and when I found that weapon, or tool, I mean, I was already… At that point in time, I was the youngest lecturer ever at University of Sydney, which is Australia’s public university. I was being paid a ridiculous amount for a very short period of time, which meant that I had a lot more time to spend on learning dating science, so that's exactly what I did.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: I spent one day working and six days just reading about dating science, watching dating science, just incredible, like, I still to this day… Actually, you know, funnily enough, Angel, what we were talking about before, the only times in my life in which I’ve worked that hard are now and at that point in time when I was learning about dating science.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. So thinking back to that, I would think a lot of us had that. I have that nostalgia too where I was putting as much as time in as you were and it was like really a healthy studious obsession.

[Mr. M]: Oh yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So like, I don’t know about you, but I kind of think back to it as a bit nostalgic because you’re learning so much as well and everything’s changing so fast, so it’s kind of like a great period.

[Mr. M]: It’s evolution, isn’t it? I mean, it’s literally your mind and the way you see your stuff and the way you see the world evolving, which feels… It’s like an orgasm, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: I mean, it’s an incredible, incredible feeling. So that happened, and then I finally got some results in Sydney, but then, unfortunately, I didn’t actually… I mean, I wasn’t actually happy. What I found was that I got some results, I hooked up with three or four girls, and then I wasn’t happy. I found that I could get some girls and I wasn’t happy. I wasn’t happy about the quality of girls, but in general I wasn’t happy and I couldn’t figure out why.

But I remember David DeAngelo and a bunch of other guys recommended an inner game book, and I’d read a lot on Buddhism, Hinduism and things like that, so basically one day I told my parents that I was moving to London. And before I was moving to London I was going to go into one of the most rural regions of Africa and live with a monk over there who was from India and he was doing good work, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: I went over there and amazing experience like, literally, if you’ve never had to chase a goat down, kill it, cook it and eat it, then [laughs] I don’t think you can fully appreciate what I went through at that time.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: But, I mean, to kill a goat and cook it and eat it like an hour later is a really bizarre experience. But yeah, I often took a lot of inner game books with me and I went for two months and I lived on a concrete floor in Africa, and it really changed me. And I brought a lot of David DeAngelo stuff, the inner game stuff, and I came to London after that and was hired by one of the Magic Circle law firms there. I previously had been working for an investment bank called Rothschild as an investment banker.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: But I went to London and worked for a Magic Circle law firm there, and while I was doing that I kept looking for self-improvement and to get better and better, and one day I was in a club and I was talking to a few girls when someone came up to me and said, “Hey man, have you read The Game?” And the truth is I’d read The Game but only like four months after I’d actually discovered and really started studying all this advice, and so I was like, “Yeah, I have,” and he's like, “You’re really good. I should introduce you to this guy and sign you to the company,” and basically from there I’ve had to for work an old, old company called Attraction Production in London, which then… Then I was approached by The Law of Attraction, I met Sheriff, and basically I met some of the Mystery Method guys before Mystery Method became Love Systems.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: And I basically tried to learn as much as I could and hang around… as much as I could just trying to deliver value to those people, so I’d say something, I’d do things like I did for my legal knowledge. I would come to a program or help out as much as I could and just hang around, just to learn. And over time I became very good and I became an instructor for these companies, and then one day I came across a Mystery Method instructor who actually saw me in-field and who heard about me but was never… I was never very active on community forums. I choose to live my life in the real world. And what happened was he basically said, “Listen, you’re actually good. Become an approach coach for me,” and I said, “Sure, I come to your bootcamps, I learned from you,” and he said, “Yeah.” This was actually Sheriff, believe it or not.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow.

[Mr. M]: [Laughs] And, you know, “Do you mind if I come to your program?” and he's like, “Yeah.” And then, I mean, I killed it on the program, and then Sheriff invited me to do a… I mean, I was already a lead instructor with another company before Love Systems, and then he invited me to LA, and all it took was that trip to LA. And you know, I love finding good talent and saying to them, “Congratulations, I’m willing to pay for you to come to LA to show your skills.” And for a young guy that's a pretty cool thing, you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. Must have been exciting times.

[Mr. M]: Yeah. I mean, it blew me away. I mean, I was a little asian kid who still thought he was cool enough being in London, and then someone said, “You’re good enough with girls nowadays. I want to showcase you to the other head honchos in LA.” And I was really nervous. I came to LA and [laughs] I was going to meet Nick Savoy, I was so nervous that I was just tongue-tied, and a few of the other guys.

And I remember I didn’t really rate myself or anything. I don’t think I had many thoughts. I was just happy to be there. And there was this really hot girl in a hotel lobby who I approached, and later on I was getting into her bedroom—I didn’t get to close her actually but it was close—and she turned out to be a Playmate, and that was an approach I did in front of two or three instructors.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I remember you talking about that way back.

[Mr. M]: Yeah, and so it was the only field report I ever wrote. It was a tradition. Savoy really pushed me to write that field report. I didn’t like writing field reports.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: My love life’s private. You’ll not find another field report that I’ve written and another article. But you know, so I went to LA and I pulled the Playmate, or rather, hooked up with the Playmate and didn’t pull her home, and yeah, so I got back to London and they made me an offer to become an instructor, because I also had, you know, a good head on my shoulders. And then things started to really kick off and I found that I really enjoyed helping people in improving their lives, and I continued with it and that's where I am now, and I’m also at the point now where I’m trying to start my own businesses and really come to a point where I’m also successful with other areas of my life. So that's my evolution, my progress.

[Angel Donovan]: Thanks, thanks, that's a really, really good review of how you got there. So I’m just wondering about the timeline from kind of when you first started using this stuff in Australia to when you became a Love Systems instructor. How long was that between the two dates, roughly?

[Mr. M]: Twenty-two, twenty-three when I became an instructor at… It was about three-and-a-half years.

[Angel Donovan]: Three-and-a-half years. So you said like you invested quite a bit of time at the start, you obviously continued to invest that, and you did some I’d say kind of unique things, you really put some effort in in terms of like you went to Africa, on your inner game and you focused on that, and you went about learning the smart way by hanging out with people and beginning to associate with a lot of people who were already good. So that must have really helped you to learn quite quickly and become quite good.

[Mr. M]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I just wanted to point out that back then there weren’t really that many products out, right? Because you’re talking about, what year was it? It’d be like 2005, somewhere around there?

[Mr. M]: Yes. Yup, yup.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so I mean like back then there weren’t so many products. As you said, like there was David DeAngelo, so you were reading that. But now there are a lot more products and things have moved on a lot more. Like what would you say about that? Because you were kind of learning from dating science, which is less evolved than today.

[Mr. M]: Yeah. You know, interestingly enough, like I think what that did was actually make me… I think it just slowed down my progress a little bit just because I didn’t have the type of resource… all those resources. I mean, I had a lot of other resources, there was still quite a bit out there, but it wasn’t nearly as evolved as it is today, and so it set me down that path first, you know, into the routine. I started off with routines, and that's not where I am right now. I’ve moved beyond that. Occasionally I still use a routine. I mean, it’s hard not to when you’re in the same conversation 500 times.

But thinking about it, like because of the lack of material back then, I also say there were tangential materials, things like Influence by Cialdini and Your Erroneous Zones by Dyer and [audio unclear 00:25:04] by [audio unclear 00:25:05], and a lot of these other books that were recommended in David DeAngelo’s courses but were also forerunners in the self-help industry and in the psychology industry.

Now, if I had the resources that were available today, I’m sure it would have made my… This is why like, I honestly really want to give something back… The truth is, Angel, that with the percentage that the company takes from their products that I released, we don’t look at that as it doesn't make very much. Like I’m not going to make over 100,000 dollars in a year if I release 10 products. The company just takes too much of a percentage.

But you know, what I do like is thinking that out there there’s someone like me who was at the point that I was at and had the resources of the DVDs and the books that I have released and I am releasing and that some of our competitors have released. Like I have more than half of the recommended courses myself that I bought. I respect really good content that's put out there, and some of their products are actually absolutely revolutionary and really helped me as well.

So I would encourage guys to just hang around successful people, but what we say at the inner game seminar is to hang around these people to learn game. In the inner game seminar we say that that there are three things that create mastery, right? And if you’re not getting much in a certain area of your life, you’re missing one of these three things. It’s knowledge, it’s mentors and it’s experience, the three things.

So get the knowledge, like learn as much as you can from the materials that are out there. Study it. Get mentors to hang around, to teach you, to send you on your way, right? And you must, you must get the experience, and the experience is actually going out there and doing it, falling flat on your face, fucking up, dealing with all of the problems. You have to go through that phase. It’s a crucial phase and it’s really almost the most important and educational part, so if you can get through it, you’ll feel like a lot more of a man.

So you know, yeah, things have changed and my approach would be slightly different now, still, you know, the process is similar and apply it as much as I can, but I think what would change is that I get better information more quickly and have a wider spectrum of ideas to choose from.

One thing I want to say though, back then, people like Ross Jeffries and… There was some really, really weird shit out there, like hypnosis and hypnotizing girls and Ross Jeffries like anchoring by way of touch and all this stuff, which I appreciate can work, but here’s the thing, Angel, that I would recommend to everyone. There is the the third eye of your mind, your instinct, that tells you when you’re talking to someone and you trust them or you don’t, you think that they’re a good person or you don’t, then you get that instinct about someone, right?

When I first working with the dating coaches out there, I was like, I immediately said to myself, “There is something about this guy which doesn’t click for me. Is it a good thing to follow?” So I’m not going to follow him, right? And that, I mean, I got from them things that I thought was working, things, theories which I thought I would try out. I never became them, I never thought to become them, I never worshipped them. I hate people, like some people in this community were talking, Angel, about how people are very eager to fan worship coming into this community, and I’ve told you if I had a choice to help releasing these people from how they see them, that would be my preference.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: But yeah, I mean there are a lot of people out there who are really sort of weird and ego-driven in trying to teach this, and if you hear something that is a bit weird and it doesn’t sound right, then help yourself to think that, because the things that sound right are the things that work, right? Like you have basic principles of how to improve, of becoming a better human being, of being more confident, you know, social theories of the way social dynamics work, those things make sense and they should pass your bullshit filter and your, you know, this-is-not-weird filter. And I think that's really, really right because instead of becoming a weird community guy you become a more social, more well-rounded guy from discovering dating science and learning it in a clever way while also trusting my instincts on the things that I learn.

[Angel Donovan]: Great. Mr. M, thanks, that's some really good stuff and some helpful advice for people when they’re looking for what they should do and what they shouldn’t, because it’s true, there's a lot of different stuff out there and it’s sometimes difficult to know what you should trust.

[Mr. M]: Sure.

[Angel Donovan]: So let's step back here, and what is your dating life like today?

[Mr. M]: So we were talking about this before…

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: …Angel, but the funny thing is right now I’ve come to a point where, I mean last year I was ranked one of the top 10 pickup artists in the world and I was like on fire, I mean absolutely on fire. But when you sleep with a whole lot of girls, you start to realize what you want is a lot higher-quality girls, and more importantly, a lot higher-quality lifestyle. Hooking up with women just happens. If I was to go… I mean, I think I could pull a girl every single night if I wanted to. I’m not saying I’d pull a 10 every single night, I mean I do live in London and it’s hard to find them.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: But all I’m saying is, you know, if I wanted… Because abundance is a lot less of an issue to me now because it’s so abundant, you know? And I am dating a girl right now, it’s not an exclusive relationship, but I hook up with other girls and she’s comfortable with that, which is how I like it as well. I’m pretty honest with girls but I remember how it was before and being like, “Holy shit, how can a girl ever let you hook up with other girls?” And it’s not easy, but when you get to a certain level you’ll know how to do it, you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: And so the girl I’m dating right now is a stripper at Spearmint Rhino. She’s one of the like hands-down hottest girls there. And I didn’t meet her there, I met her in a club, so if that's like any indication of my club game, then it’s a good measure. But I’m dating her and any day of the week you could go out and meet a new girl especially as I travel a lot for my businesses, like we were talking about how I was just around your zone actually in Asia, visiting my my supplier in China and Indonesia and Hong Kong and that's in addition to the good income from Love Systems.

So right now I would say that hookups happen regularly, like it’s not even a question of trying anymore. I mean, it is sometimes a question of how hot the girl would be. I really, really gun for only 9’s and 10s, but you typically get one of those every one or two weeks and a lot of times they’re taken or, you know, you don’t always have a 100% hit ratio in the game. But those are the type of girls that I go out with, and what I’m into now is really my social circle, to have a really solid group of what we call Navy Seal Team guys around me who enhance like my life and my ability to improve myself.

Here’s the interesting thing about that. I mean, I don’t want to get into extreme technology, but within social circle mastery game we realized that the males that you surround yourself with are often more important than the females in terms of your ability to pick up, right? Because the ones that you interact with in a social group is what John Nash called a signaling mechanism to girls around you to see how attractive you are because they can more accurately judge or their subconscious brain will accurately judge your social value by the way people act around you and their status as well. So I have now a Navy Seal Team in London and internationally. I’m thinking about moving to LA next year…

[Angel Donovan]: Uh-huh.

[Mr. M]: …or this year and reuniting with Braddock and with Zach, two instructors from Love Systems who are also on the same path as me…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: …and really developing the life where… I mean, there's no two ways about it. I’m a multimillionaire who travels a lot but who also has a good business, I’m delivering value to a lot of people, and I have a sort of… I don’t want a harem of women or anything, I want to live the penultimate lifestyle, right? So the lifestyle where I can literally go out to any spot, I’ll know a lot of people there, I’ll spend whatever I want to spend that night, and I’ll have… Well, I mean, like I said, it’s funny because I don’t really talk about the girls I am seeing whatever happens, I’ll never ever be short of girls or hot girls as well, you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: People talk about pulling 9’s and 10s, and the truth is like yes, I want to do that, I want to do that with more frequency, but it’s not a question of whether or not I can do that, it’s more a question of where I do it, with who and the content surrounding it, and I get like the quality of girl, because a girl can be 9 in looks but not so much in mentality, and I’m searching for those hot girls and I’m glad that I have the game to be able to get it.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, and just like as an aside thing to that where we’re talking about earlier, is when you get this part of your life handled, it really allows you to build the other aspects of your life. You’ve been talking about your lifestyle and your wealth and all the other aspects of your life you’re working on now and you’re building and you aspire to, and as part of that, as the backdrop to that, once we’ve kind of like solved and got over, well, we say our insecurities in the dating area of our world and got satisfied with that aspect of our life, then it actually frees us up to pursue all of these other things that we really want in our life.

[Mr. M]: Yeah, not only that, I mean what I’ve found was that, and this may be in particular to myself and Braddock, but because we did so much research into social circle, and I'm not talking about inner game now, I mean looking at social circle mastery, social circle mastery is the study, I mean I’m not even supposed to be promoting this right now because we’re stopping the seminars because we get it, we don’t find the need to teach this anymore, I mean it's rare we do bootcamps either, so we don’t run it very much anymore…

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mr. M]: But because we’ve spent so long in that, I learned how to build social connections. I learned really, really powerful things about the influence and the importance of that and of the way that you operate in your social sphere, and I just… I get it. I’m so comfortable in that environment, in that sphere, like it makes my life, there's no question in my head when I’m in social situations about what needs to happen, about who I am, about my position in that sphere, about why people react in certain ways, like I literally… It’s not like seeing the matrix, it’s like seeing the matrix within yourself. Don’t let me get into a rant about that, but…

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: …what I’m telling you, you know, you take those skills and you bring them to other areas of your life. So, for example, the ability to socially network, I have access in the high end of celebrity social circles in London, but the ability to know how to do that, and some of it is a little bit Machiavellian, but in the end it all comes down to your integrity and your reputation and the fact that people trust you and the fact that you convince people into believing that you’re a good person, unless you are actually a good person.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: That's so weird. We talk about a concept in social circle mastery, which means that, you know, Angel, if you’ve met someone and… Have you ever met someone, you shake the guy’s hand and you don't know why but for some reason your body goes, “I trust this guy?”

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, sure. Of course.

[Mr. M]: That's the power of what we call rapport, right? Rapport can change over time, but being able to control that, being able to understand how that… And that's only one of the tiny aspects of what we discovered in our research in social circle mastery, but all of that stuff really enhanced our lives and… and even in things like, we’re talking about developing businesses, even in terms of networking and branching out or things like learning new things, being able to use social circle mastery to get to know new people in my industry who I need to be able to do that is priceless, like absolutely priceless. And the same thing with inner game and the other sort of topic introductions that I’ve covered, they all have [audio unclear 00:39:54] effect that improves my life immensely in other areas. So as far as being that the effect is simply just the effect for women, it has been on the contrary more like attaining a higher life, which is on all accounts filtering into all aspects of my life, which is something that I’m eternally grateful for.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, and exactly the same from here, although I haven’t worked in the social circle stuff anywhere near as much as you have, so I’m sure you’ve got a lot more out of that.

[Mr. M]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: I’m going to start winding this up now, but I kind of want to leave with, you know, you’ve spoken about like, before we were talking about wanting to give back and things like that and you touched on that a little bit during this interview as well, and I wanted to talk about like on the bootcamps, you know, I know back when I was training now and again you’d have a student that was a lot more challenging and take a lot more to kind of help them through what they were dealing with, so I’d like to kind of finish off with you talking about one of your most challenging students and how you got around those challenges in helping him.

[Mr. M]: Sure. Let me think. There have been some challenges in the past. There have been two guys in wheelchairs.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow, that is kind of different.

[Mr. M]: There are guys especially in inner game which really… It was really horrible, like very, very hard to deal with. I’d much prefer someone with some physical issue than with a really fucked up inner game. It’s a lot harder to deal with. I mean, like I had literally on bootcamp come across guys who cried because I brought out repressed memories, you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Mr. M]: It’s so weird, Angel, that like you become a psychologist sometimes in bootcamp. If you really go deep into the reason what is stopping someone’s best self from coming out, it’s often things that they can’t see but you have to, me as an instructor I have to be trained to see, you know? And it takes a lot of… I say this all the time to my instructors that I’m training now. I’ve trained almost 50% of the new instructors, you know? But I say that you have to be able to look into the world from the perspective of the person that you’re teaching and to be able to see the things that are going wrong, because every action is a result of a feeling or an emotion, something that happens inside. Every negative reaction that decreases attraction is a result of that, and it’s our job to actually find those. And you know, when you’ve got a fucked up inner game, there's layers and layers of stuff that you just have to go through to discover that.

And actually I think that the most important part of bootcamp when I have to put myself into their shoes and start asking questions about feelings and acting and talking like the person so that I can neurologically feel exactly what they’re feeling to be able to fix them, it’s great because it’s given me the skill of empathy and of understanding someone else’s point of view and of being able to fix that, but man, it’s fucking insane.

I mean, let me think. Toughest student, just to get back to your regular question. Toughest student was probably this guy with pretty messed up inner game, I mean it wasn’t that bad, but it was a really old guy and… Or no, no, I think he wasn’t that old. I’ve had older. But you know, he was 60 and he’d just gone through a rough divorce and literally took a bootcamp to learn dating science and get himself out of there. Oh, oh, wait. No, I just thought of a tougher guy. God. Alright.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: Oh God. This is horrible. This was with my Playboy Mansion bootcamp, right, which was supposed to be an awesome for me. This bootcamp, interestingly enough, was the one where Bobby Rio from TSB Magazine actually tracked me and followed me around and saw my women skills and saw my attraction skills and then ranked me as one of the top pickup guys in the world.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: What happened in this bootcamp was the student was… Okay, the student was a multimillionaire, right? Now, okay, follow me here. He was a multimillionaire who one year ago, this multimillionaire one year ago walked across the street with his business partner and got hit by a truck, alright? They were literally dragged along the ground for about 20 meters, tore up their faces, their ligaments, tore up their arms. They couldn’t walk properly. One of them had… His eyes were all fucked up and the other lost three-quarters of vision and… Have you ever seen that movie "Born on the Fourth of July" with…

[Angel Donovan]: Tom Cruise.

[Mr. M]: You know when he comes out of Vietnam and he just has that messed up mental state?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: Yeah, and he goes into a just a crazy disruptive mental state. Where nothing can interrupt this disruptive mental state and they don't let anything in that state get spoiled, you know, because they were filthy rich, so they were sort of like, sort of arrogant, and physically fucked up as well. We were at the Playboy Mansion, you know?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: And so, I mean, like wow, that was tough. But when you do that, when that happens, you have to appreciate the place where the student is coming from, you know? Like put yourself into their shoes, and the realization is that there are ways which I need a student to think in order for that person to be naturally attractive to women, but there are… Let's say there's a point they have to get to, you know? For them to get to point where things will change there are numerous barriers along the way which stops them, there are barriers, psychological barriers, emotional barriers, and barriers which are being reinforced by years of negative experiences where the brain is wired to act that way, what do you call it, a traumatic event, right, which stops them from getting to the mentality that I needed to get them at before I can release them onto, you know, a bunch of girls and know that they’re going to be attractive. My goal there is not necessarily to get them laid but to give them the tools and skills to get laid, alright? Any Tom, Dick or Harry on a lucky night can try and get laid… It really pisses me off actually when dating coaches take the credit for [laughs] some guy who got laid. It’s not about getting laid obviously. It’s about improving and getting that feeling that you're in control and being able to get consistent results after it as well, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: Okay man, I’ve been… I mean, you know, Savoy felt so sorry for me because I basically spent the entire night of the the Playboy Mansion with these guys and I did two demos for Bobby Rio of TSB Magazine…

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: Did two demos for them, which was really well, I was able hook up with a pretty hot Playmate, but that literally was like a 25-minute demo. And then the rest of the time I spent with these guys, and you know that when a guy needs your help and as the lead instructor it was my job to help him. So I spent most of the night with them talking through their inner game, trying to get them to open even, trying to get them to open themselves and get out of shit mental state, trying to get them to understand the mentality they needed, working through boundaries, and as I said, spending 10 minutes doing that, for me, is definitely exhausting. I have to put myself into their shoes.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Mr. M]: Spending, you know, a whole night, by the end of the night I was literally… I wasn’t in tears, but I was really upset because I hadn’t got the… It was my first time ever at the Playboy Mansion, I was really excited, and I just spent all night with helping two guys who really, really needed my help. And Savoy put his hand on my shoulder when I came back to thank me and he's like, “Good job.” He's like, “Next time we go to the Playboy Mansion, I’ll pay for you to have a fun night.” And he hasn’t come through with that, so fuck him.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs]

[Mr. M]: No. But that's how I saw them, they both got phone numbers that night, and one of them was with a girl and I think he was making out with her.

[Angel Donovan]: Oh, that's an awesome ending.

[Mr. M]: Well, yeah, because the effect… I mean, that's not the ending, it’s the beginning, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah.

[Mr. M]: It's the beginning, the bootcamp.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: And you know, I got in touch with them afterwards and they said… Love Systems has a no-questions-asked, money-back-guarantee policy, so they basically could have asked for a refund at any time even after the bootcamp finished, right?

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm.

[Mr. M]: And they knew this, and you know, they sent me an email saying, “Look, thanks so much. We appreciate how much effort you put…” It’s like, you know how you have the four stages of learning, like conscious/unconscious incompetence…?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, yeah.

[Mr. M]: Yeah. Well, you know, they were unconsciously incompetent, it came out consciously incompetent, and going towards conscious competent, right? Which, look, for guys who came from such a place was great for me having only 15 hours with them, right, including my seminar time—so 15 hours like entails what? Like five, oh, six hours in-field, was a pretty big change in my mind, you know.

[Angel Donovan]: Mm-hmm. That's an awesome story and, yeah, it’s pretty inspiring. You know, even guys in what we’d consider as like, as you say, having gone through such traumatic experiences can start to recover from that and you can help them move on.

[Mr. M]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: So, Mr. M, thanks for the interview today, it’s been awesome catching up with you and there’s been some great stuff in it, so I’m looking forward to putting this up on the site. Yeah, well, I’ll let you get on with your day now. I’m sure you have other stuff to do. It’s nighttime here, so time for me to go out. Look forward to catching up with you again.

[Mr. M]: Great. Well, yes, I wish you good luck with the Dating Skills Review and I love what you have been doing. You deliver a lot of really great content to your listeners here and to your sponsors. And if you ever need me to come on and do another interview again, then let me know and we’ll get the audio issues fixed.

[Angel Donovan]: [Laughs] Yeah.

[Mr. M]: Yeah. So, we’ll go from there.

[Angel Donovan]: Alright. Awesome, man. Well, like I say, it’s been awesome catching up with you.