#101 Successful Polyamory Strategies (that Can Make Monogamy Better Too) with Elisabeth Sheff

[Angel Donovan]: Eli, thank you so much for joining the show.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Angel Donovan]: Great so, what's going to be cool about today's episode is like you're coming from this different perspective than all of the other perspectives we've had, very academic perspective. Could you give us some perspective on what that is? What kind of academic work have you been doing over the last 15 years.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: I'm a sociologist.

[Angel Donovan]: Ah huh.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And the kind of research I do is ethnography, meaning that I interviews and participant observation. So, I go and hang out with the people I'm studying and observe them while they have their regular lives. So with polyamory, especially because I studied families with children, that meant going to their homes and just hanging out with them while they made dinner and folded and laundry and did the dishes and worked on homework and just kind did mundane family life things.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right the day-to-day and so, you're saying...observations, you're taking notes? You're like, "They just did this. They just did that," kind of thing or "I just noticed that interesting thing that occurred"?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right, I would take notes more in my head and then, run out to my car.

[Angel Donovan]: Oh because, it was inappropriate to make notes?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: In front of them yeah. It just makes people more uncomfortable, I think. So, I would take a little break and run out to my car and type furiously and then, come back and observe some more.

[Angel Donovan]: So, how long did you hang out with them because, I'm just wondering like how inhibited did you think it would be by your presence and versus...say if you're around for a while, they start to let go a little bit more, I think.≥.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right, exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: ...versus if it's just like one day. I did some of this stuff for business school.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Ah huh.

[Angel Donovan]: I hung and the guy noticed the first couple of days. He was like paying a lot of attention to me and then afterwards, he kind of forgot I was there.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Exactly yes. So, that's when I would get the best data is when I could just blend into the background and they would just have their regular family lives which often included a lot scheduling. Poly people with multiple adults and multiple children have tons of scheduling to do.

So, that was one of the most common conversations people would have, "When are you going out on a date? Who's going to be with the kids? How much money do we have left for dating and things like that? What are the people with the kids, how much money do they have to go? Can we take the adults out to movies and the kids to the movies at the same time? Should the kids stay home and macaroni and cheese?"

[Angel Donovan]: Right so, it's more of organization overhead in the relationship it sounds like.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Especially, if you have kids like that scenario.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Many poly families have a scheduler, one person who kind of keeps a handle on everyone else's schedule and knows when people are working or out of town or who's birthday is when, things like that. Because when you have six or seven adults and eight kids or something like that, you've got a lot to keep track of.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so what kind of configurations did you look at? You just mentioned six or seven adults and I'm assuming you looked kind of a bunch of different configurations because, they're not all the same.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: What were the typical scenarios or the range?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: The most common form of family I found was the open couple with children. So often, it was just the two of them, often a male and a female, sometimes legally married who had had children and they were living just the couple with their children and they would have other lovers would come and go all the time. Come spend the night.

One of the parents would go spend the night at the other lover's house. So, they would have...they would appear as if they were just kind of an average couple with close friends, with people coming over all the time.

Most poly families don't necessarily live together with everyone in the relationship because, it just gets too complicated trying to manage so many people using the same house. So, it's just easier for people to have their own space and then socialize together. That's the way most poly families work.

Some certainly do live together in groups larger than two. While most people initially approach polyamory if they're already in a relationship, for some reason, there's a lot of people who approach the poly community as a male and female couple looking to add another woman. That kind of free floating bi-sexual woman is so rare that she's called "the unicorn."

[Angel Donovan]: Oh, really?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes and so, the people looking for her are called "the unicorn hunters."

[Angel Donovan]: And there's lots of them.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And there's lots of them especially, new to the community. Often when people have polyamorous for a long time, they stop looking for her and they go for other relationships configurations.

[Angel Donovan]: They give up. That was their dream and they never fulfilled it.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: That was their dream and then, they realize.

[Angel Donovan]: That's interesting. So, they must be highly prized, the unicorns.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes, highly prized absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Are they fought over, like are there competitive dynamics going after her?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: To some extent although, a lot of the people looking for them don't necessarily understand the polyamorous community that much. So they'll put out in their...oh, what are the ads they put on line...like the personal ads. They'll say, "Oh, we're looking for a woman between 18 and 30 who must love children and be willing to move to our rural farm in North Dakota and raise....

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: ...our pigs for us or you know, like they have this very long list of things they want from the woman but, they don't list anything of why the woman would be interested in being with them. They just kind of put it out there, this expectation that then they'll have this line of women lining and sending them photos and they'll be able to choose the one that appeals to them both the most and it never, ever, ever works that way. So then, they get really upset and bitch about how it's so hard to find good women and then, people who've been in the poly community for a long time say, "Well, you're not making yourselves appealing."

[Angel Donovan]: Ah huh.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: "Put some work into your own selves if you want someone to be interested in you. Give information about why she might find you interesting and don't expect her to come and just be with you on your terms. Be willing to date someone who's already dating someone else. Be willing to go to her place. Be willing to date a man."

[Angel Donovan]: So, I guess they're coming from...like sometimes they have children and stuff. So, they're just thinking completely from what's going to be able to fit into their life because, as you said before, it's...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]: ...if you have a family, it's more complex to fit this in...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: ...and they're just kind of like thinking, "How are we going to fit this in?"

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: Like, "This is kind of a wish for us" but, how does this kind of get started? We're talking about married couples. They just decide one day, we want a third or is this their first experience, typically and this is kind of how it tends to start, the interest or were they in the swinging community or...?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: All of those happen actually. Sometimes, it's a couple that's been married for a long time and one of them meets someone and they accidentally all kind of develop a relationship. People get into polyamory accidentally sometimes.

More often, it's that they decide they want to open the relationship and then go looking intently and...at least the unicorn hunters are looking for that. That works sometimes.

More often, it takes a little bit of practice to figure out how to have an open relationship. A lot of people start their first open relationship with kind of a more monogamous mindset of, "This is the primary partner. This is the real spouse. This is the person, this relationship needs to be protected and this other person over here, I'm just dating."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And then they should...if the spouse gets uncomfortable, then the date or the girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever should really back off until the primary relationship is stable again. But, long term polyamorous don't like that because, the secondary person, the girlfriend or boyfriend who gets dismissed if things get difficult between the original couple, that gets really old for the secondaries. They don't like...

[Angel Donovan]: It doesn't work unless, if they're a sub? I don't know. Do some subs put up with that kind of approach for a long time?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely and some subs really seek that. You mean, submissive in terms of a power dynamic of absolutely and in fact, there's a lot of BDSM. Do they call it that in England, BDSM, sadomasochism or kink?

[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, I'm sure they call it lots of other things too.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Okay. Well, there's a lot of that happening in the poly community, a good half of them at least.

[Angel Donovan]: So, this is something we've also talked to swingers from the lifestyle before and there's a lot of crossover between BDSM. We talked to people about BDSM too. Swinging, polyamory, all of these communities seem to tend to bump into each other a bit or crossover.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: I would say at least in the US and that's where I did my research. I called it the "Overlapping Identities Study."

[Angel Donovan]: Uh huh.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And, I initially looked at how all of these identities come together, polyamory, swinging, BDSM and fetishes are what I looked at and I found that the swingers are really much more their own group politically and socially. There is some overlap with polyamory but, not nearly as much as with BDSM and polyamory.

There's a lot more overlap and I also found in the study that the group of people with fetishes was not nearly separate enough to categorize them separately from the folks who do BDSM. So, I lumped all of them together and there just weren't enough...there wasn't enough intersection in that specific group with swingers and BDSM and polyamory. So, I focused on polyamory and BDSM was the outcome of that research.

[Angel Donovan]: Okay, so swingers tend to stay apart from that.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And they're much like polyamorists. They tend to be white and middle or upper-middle class and again, this is in the US. Different from polyamorists, the swingers tend to be more religious, more politically conservative and a lot more closeted. It's just something they do on the side for sexual variety but, necessarily a political identity for them.

[Angel Donovan]: So sometimes, they keep it hidden? That's what you're saying?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Many times yes and they don't involve family with it and they don't come out to their families about it and they don't introduce their kids. It's just a sideline that the adults do for sexual variety. Whereas, the polyamorists, when they're establishing these long-term emotionally intimate relationships, they eventually introduce their children.

Not right away. Not until they're certain that this person is going to stick around and is safe. So, often they will date someone for quite a while before they introduce the kids but, once that person has been fully vetted and found to be a potential lasting family member then, they get introduced to the kids more as a friend, just someone who's hanging around and not, "This is your dad," or something.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Polyamorous are very careful about moving slowly and not willie nilli bringing people into the family. There's a pretty significant, usually not only period of time but, kind of set of circumstances of looking into that person's background to make sure they're safe to be around the family.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, right cool. It sounds like a lot of the time, they're treated as friends. I mean, which could appear to those people like they have a lower status as well, I guess.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes, sometimes that is the case especially, when they're a partner in some circumstances but then, kind of back to the secondary thing where secondary partners feel slighted, emotionally slighted.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: When they're kind of a full family member when it's time to pay the utility bill or do the dishes or take care of the kids but then when it's time to go to the community Christmas or the family Thanksgiving suddenly, they're eliminated from the family. They're not a real family member and that gets old for the secondary partners who are kind of yanked around emotionally.

That does not work. Not that that is the case with all secondary partners at all. Many secondary partnerships work really well but, you were asking about some of the disadvantages of polyamorous relationships and that power differential between primary and secondary partners can be super problematic.

[Angel Donovan]: I guess one of the divisions we have to make is because like, polyamorous tends to be a highly...it sounds like highly invested relationships basically.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: These are just like long-term relationships.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Seems like a lot of hard work. My experience with having multiple relationships, one point I had three girlfriends for a time period was exhausting, basically.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: It's a way of life I've chosen not to pursue quite a while ago just because, I've got other stuff to in my life and...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: So, that fits well with what you were saying about organization, complexity which I found was part of the problem. Organizing people with their jobs and my stuff that was going on. It got complicated and it also created conflicts quite easily.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: For me personally, that just felt like that was too much work. It wasn't worth the outcomes. So, what tend to be the drivers of people who are interested in this and do they have a particular lifestyle? I don't know maybe, they have more...they tend to have different kinds of jobs or what kind of situations are relevant for polyamory if there are certain situations that make it easier.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Well, I would agree that of all of the different forms of consensual non-monogamy, polyamory is definitely the hardest, the most, the highest maintenance and probably the least workable for the majority of people. Of all of them, I would say polyamory works for fewer people than like swinging, for instance which allows the sexual variety but, keeps more of kind of a firewall between the couple and other partners where they're not hanging out emotionally all the time and they're not considering each other in their schedules.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah well, it seems like in swinging...speaking to swingers, the relationships are very fluid and dynamic. It's kind of like dating...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: ...for a little while and then, the relationships just come and go. It's not anything fixed or maybe it can be...serious stuff does happen but, it's just like come and go all the time.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes and many swingers in fact have rules about not having sex repeatedly with the same other person so you don't develop emotional intimacy. So, sometimes, it's only one time per person ever, sometimes not more than three. It varies by the swingers but, they seem to be able to kind of manage or navigate that consent partner turnover with just a greater emotional distance in a way that polyamorous are actually trying to cultivate emotional intimacy and really working for that long-term connection.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, it's seems like the objectives are actually pretty different. Polyamorous the word says...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: ...amore, right? So...that's really the goal whereas swinging is more of a sexual experience like, what I get it's more about sexual activity, sexual exploration...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And variety.

[Angel Donovan]: ...primarily. I'm not saying that there's no communication and of course, it's like so many nice emotions but, it's not the focus of what's going on. So, I guess I can give people at home a bit more of a perspective, if they're coming from these different perspectives today what they're looking one might be more suitable.

I guess the polyamorous people, are they typically being monogamous before? They haven't been more of the swinger lifestyle because, it sounds like they don't tend to mix too much?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: I'll take the second part of that question first. They do mix to some degree, not as extensively. As the polyamorous and the kinksters or the BDSM folks have such significant overlap, it is hard to downplay that but, the polyamorous and the swingers do have an area of overlap. Enough so that Ken Haslam who is a poly activist in the United States came up with the name "Swoly" to characterize that intersection between swinging and poly, "swoly."

[Angel Donovan]: Ah, so this is what you have a couple of lovers and then, you do a bit of swinging as well?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes and sometimes with those same poly partners and sometimes with other people completely.

[Angel Donovan]: Because, it seems like some of the time, they meet someone else they love and then, they're like, "Oh, what do I do?"

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right and that certainly is the case for some people. It kind of depends on if they view polyamory as a sexual orientation for themselves or as a relationship style that they can choose or choose not to engage in.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: For the sexual orientation folks, they often have been in multiple partner relationships since they were kids. Like, they'll talk about never being able to establish just one best friend. That they always have a group of friends and never just a single best friend and that they could never envision themselves just marrying one person. Even as a kid, they though, "Oh no, that's not going to work for me."

So, these folks who monogamy has never worked for them, has never felt comfortable, some of them have tried repeatedly to be monogamous and always end up cheating on their partners and then, they decide, "That's it. No more promises of monogamy." If they're not actually going to do it, they're not going ever agree to it anymore and so, that's how they feel like they protect their own ethical center is just by saying, "No monogamy."

For other people, polyamory is more of the lifestyle that they can choose to engage in or choose not to do and those folks tend to have been monogamous at some point and then, decided to either open that monogamous relationship and become polyamorous. Some of them start out monogamous and then, either they cheat or their spouse cheats and they divorce and then they're like, "Okay, that's enough of the cheating thing." They're just not going to do monogamy anymore.

Some of them, just as you mentioned, meet some specific person and are like, "Oh goodness. I'm in love with my husband or wife but, I've met this new person and I don't want to let go of my husband or wife." Depending on how they handle that, that can be a complete disaster. I think of that as kind of the Newt Gingrich version of open relationships and Newt Gingrich is very conservation politician in the United States...

[Angel Donovan]: Uh huh.

[Elisabeth Sheff]:...who champions family values but, has been married some outrageous six or seven times. I'm not exactly sure how many times he's been married but, one of his wives was dying of cancer and he went in to say to her, "Hey Honey, I've seeing this other person for three years. How about we have an open relationship." She's like, "You've been seeing them for three years. That's doesn't count as an open relationship. That's cheating!" And so much like that, people who come to their partner and basically confess cheating and then want to turn it into an open relationship that is a disaster in the making.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that's a bad start.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Because polyamory relies so much on trust and communication, it's very difficult to trust someone who's been lying to you for years and then suddenly be like, "Okay, now we're in an open relationship. Let's be straightforward about this." That just doesn't work.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, I can see that would definitely turn very, very bad. A lot of the situations I've seen is where people just keep that secret.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Obviously, that's the current model but, I have friends who got married and when they are cheating, they just keep it quiet but, they don't seem to be able to do the marriage thing without cheating. So, I always wonder...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Why be married?

[Angel Donovan]: Why don't you just do polyamory? I think the answer comes back is that that's not the way society lets us...they look their jobs and they look their lives, their friends and it's just not the way things are done for them where they. So, they go with the standard model which is married and cheating or some people who are better off as just married.

So, are there any areas where you think polyamory works better than...they feel that's it's working better for them and there are advantages to it versus monogamy, like where the people are like, "Our life is better because of this. It's better than if we were in..."

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Oh absolutely. I hear a lot of different advantages, not only getting...the first one the adults come up with is getting more of their needs met because, really one person can't meet every single need that other people have. That's our contemporary model of marriage that your spouse is going to be your best friend and the best lover ever and great co-parent and a financial planner and your companion and...the polyamorous talk about by spreading those needs around, they get those needs met much better. Not only...

[Angel Donovan]: They get the full dream person. I used to come with something similar myself. I'm going to run it by you. I don't know if you think this what people's standards evolve on. Basically, I have dated a lot. So, the people I've seen who've dated a lot, the more experience they have, the less likely they are to settle down. I think one of the reasons is, we've dated a lot (especially, if you dated a wide variety of people ), it's impossible to put all those people into one person because, they are all so different.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: And then...so you're like, "I kind of miss that or I kind of miss these conversations or the sex" or whatever it was, like these different people right? So it sounds like in polyamory, they get...that's what they're trying fulfill, this ultimate dream.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes and it's not...you're right. It's not just the sex. The sexual variety is really fun for some of them but, for some others of them, it is the conversation or the fun doing something. Or the specific adventurous kind of personality where someone else, the adventurous kind of personality would be too unstable to have children and have on the mortgage but, they're really fun to go camping with and then, you want the stable person as the other co-parent of your children and on the mortgage and things like that. So, it is a way to get all sorts of needs met.

At the same time, looking for partners all the time can be very exciting for some people. They really love that feeling of constantly being kind of on the prowl, that that's really exciting. That same kind of prowling feeling can be exhausting for other people. They want to just choose a partner and be done with it.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: So, for many long-term polyamorous folks, once they have two or three partners, they're not necessarily looking for more. They talk about it. Many of them use the same kind of metaphor that "their dance card is filled." Once you've got three partners, adding more partners, how do you find the time for that? So, three seems to be kind of a magic number of three really intensive partnerships.

Then sometimes, people will have lighter more casual relationships as well and some people have 10,12 partners. It's not necessarily just a...always a family-oriented thing but, the folks that I was talking to tended to be...because, I was studying families with children, these folks tended to be in much more serious relationships and there does seem to be a maximum number of [inaudible] that people can sustain simply because, of time is a limited quantity. They talk about love being...they can have this endless amount of love and love multiple partners but, there still remains just 24 hours in a day no matter much love you have.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah and as the quality of the relationship, if you try to split it down more...if you think about the modern lifestyle, a lot of people are already not, a lot of time not investing enough into their relationships in terms of intimacy, in terms of communication and things like that. So, this is a lot where like we hear about marriages breaking down or relationships just breaking down.

I think a lot of it's just like, they get...they gain stress by their jobs. They're getting too much into their jobs and they come home and they don't feel like talking. You can imagine, you've got another couple of those relationships and you're already not doing well with the first one.

So, I guess that's another big thing, like just for the guys at home. If you're not able to handle one relationship really well then, there's no way you should be trying to having a more polyamorous lifestyle. That's just probably going to get worse in terms of your life quality.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Unless, there is this category called the "poly single" and poly singles tend to organize their lives around other things besides a primary romantic partner. So, they're not looking for a spouse-like kind of person.

[Angel Donovan]: Ah huh.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: They want to be in that secondary role where no one asks them what time they're going to be home from work. No one assumes that they'll go the family Christmas dinner with them. That level of freedom is really important to them.

So, for people who don't have that yen to be in one really important committed relationship, even if they're having other relationships but aren't looking for that one primary, poly singleness can be a great option because, you can have love and sex and affection and people to hang out with and then, you go home to your own place where you live by yourself or maybe you even live with roommates or your sister or something.

You know but, your life isn't organized a primary partner as your main anchor. Those folks are doing all sorts of other things that might include love and sex and friendship but, they're not in a marriage-like relationship. So, just because you can't sustain a marriage-like relationship, doesn't mean that polyamory won't work for you.

Just be clear that, if you're going to be a poly single, other people need to know that they should accept primary partnership things from you. You're not going to want to have a baby with them. You're not going to want to buy a house with them. You're not going to want to meet their parents necessarily. I mean, maybe you will after you've been together for years but, you're never going to be their wife or something or their husband. I guess if most of your listeners are male.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah. There we go. Alright, thank you for that. That sounds like more like a permanent dating lifestyle.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: It is but, sometimes dating the same people for years and years.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Yeah so, that's what I would call like, I guess what I was doing because obviously, I wasn't living with anyone at the same time.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And they all knew about each other? The other people you were dating knew?

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: So, that could be poly single because, it's...

[Angel Donovan]: That's poly single and I didn't even know it. Yeah so, it's achievable. I still find it kind of tiring and complex.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: But, I guess it's a level of independence. You can make different boundaries. I don't know, seeing people less, once per week and stuff. I find most people want to see you more than once a week and that's where it starts getting a bit complicated but, people have different relations.

I've been in relationships where I've seen them once a month sometimes and that's gone on for years and years. So, I guess it's all sorts of shapes and sizes. Is that what you've seen?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes, definitely poly folks, someone them see each other, see their partners every day, some of them once a month. It really varies by partnership.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And they will often, if people have multiple significant partnership, they will often end up spending time together. So, a woman with both her husband and her boyfriend will go out for dinner and to the movies because, there's just not enough time to see people everyone individually all the time. They tend to do more things together which is crucial that people know about each other and like each other if you're going to be going out for dinner and going to movies and things like that together.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, liking each other isn't always a given.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Not at all. Not even close.

[Angel Donovan]: Great, are there other advantages that people point out in particular? So...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: For the parents especially, parents of young children talk about sleep like it's golden. I mean, when you've got one infant and four parents then, you're only awake all night one night out of every four. So...

[Angel Donovan]: Ah...if you have a baby, of course.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes, you get more...

[Angel Donovan]: And you can rely on them. I guess that's one of those really tight polyamory....

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: ...the developed ones you were talking about.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Living together, yeah.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Because often, people won't have babies together unless they're serious about each other. Occasionally, there is the accidental pregnancy and that can really throw a kind in the works but, for the most part, the polyamory are so concerned about sexually transmitted infections and not getting or giving anybody another that that kind of a concern about not accidentally sharing bodily fluids, also prevents unplanned pregnancy.

[Angel Donovan]: So, we were just talking with someone about the swinger lifestyle and they were saying that the statistics on STIs are lower than the average because, they're more conscious about. You know, even though they've got a more active lifestyle.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And even lower among polyamorists, I would say.

[Angel Donovan]: And even better for...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Lower...

[Angel Donovan]: ...polyamorous.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yeah, among the poly folks and in fact, one of my colleagues in the US, Terry Conley did a study that showed people in consensually non-monogamous relationships like swinging or polyamory have significantly lower rates of transmission of sexually transmitted infections than people who are cheating because, if you're...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]:...cheating, you've been married for five years and suddenly you...

[Angel Donovan]: You can't wear a condom.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: No, you come home and you say, "Honey, I think we should start using condoms." Honey's like, "Wait a minute. What have you been doing that all of a sudden we need to use condoms."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes, sexually transmitted infections are a big thing in the poly community that people very aware of. Not that no one has them but, people get tested, they communicate about it, they use safer sex protocols and then, they get tested again. They're very focused on testing.

[Angel Donovan]: Cool. Yeah, it's interesting statistic and it's really against what people think but, people don't think about the mainstream is not to be able to talk about this and the situation you were talking about where it's like, "If I've cheated, I can't like use condom anyway."

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right and the talking about it is another one of the advantages that poly folks talk about is that when you have to talk to groups of people about your feeling and kind of negotiate your boundaries with groups of people, it really makes you think about yourself. It's an element personal growth or self-reflection that you can't remain in denial about things, for instance.

When you're in a four-person relationship and all three of the other people are saying, "You get really defensive sometimes when people try to tell you something about yourself. You know like, if people criticize you, you get really defensive" and you're like, "No I don't." You know, you're like, "Oh I guess, maybe I do."

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that's actually a very interesting bonus I've never thought of. I guess when we're one-on-one, it's me versus you and whoever's the strongest or whatever, has got the strongest mind, a lot of people are just going to like say, "I'm like this right? It's not." But, when you have three people, four people, it's a completely different dynamic.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely so, you learn more things about yourself. The polyamorous say you gain communication skills and negotiation skills. You also learn what you really want because, if you don't tell the other people in the relationship what you want then, you are absolutely not going to get it because, other people are going to say what they want.

If you just go along with it then, you know over time... people, especially the women I've interviewed say that it's helped them think about what they want and ask for it. So for instance, dealing with jealousy is a popular issue that comes up and if people get jealous then, thinking through why they're jealous and what to do about it is often a personal growth exercise for them, facing the jealousy.

[Angel Donovan]: Right whereas, maybe they haven't come across that as much. I think in a lot of monogamous situations, jealousy is going to come up at some time but, it's obviously going to come up a lot more intensely when you've actually got a polyamory situation going. You might have to talk about it a lot sooner as well.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Definitely, definitely. So, the variety of lovers also makes people kind of explore new parts of themselves too. That goes back to the meeting multiple needs.

Also, multiple partners kind of bring out new elements of people that they didn't realize were in there which can also be a disadvantage, ironically if the new thing people encounter in themselves ends up not working in their other or more long-established relationship. Sometimes, polyamory can break people up, can end a relationship.

In terms of advantages for the children, children in this study really surprised me with their advantages and their disadvantages. The advantage they pointed to most often was being about to get a ride where ever they wanted. With multiple adults, there was always someone to pick them up from the movies or take them to their friend’s house or something like that.

So, "I did anticipate being able to rely on adults" as an advantage that kids could find but, this focus on rides and the kind of freedom they gained from multiple adults. Not only to get rides but also, to get advice and help on homework was a big one.

In terms of the disadvantages, I thought kids would say, the biggest disadvantage that they would get close to their parent's partners and then when the parents broke up with those people, they would go away and the kids would miss them. I definitely anticipated that being the primary disadvantage and actually, while they did mention that, it was way down on the list.

The biggest disadvantage the kids spoke universally was too much supervision. They couldn't get away with anything. All those parents. all those adults around noticing what they're doing and where they are made it very difficult for kids to sneak out or lie. Because, if you tell a lie to one parent and the parents are communicating and there are four of them then, you've got to remember exactly what you said to that one parent and say the same thing to all the other parents and little kids can't keep a lie together that well. Kids definitely found that as a disadvantage.

[Angel Donovan]: It sounds like the kids thought it was a disadvantage but, it sounds like an advantage in terms of, they might just ditch the lies and start being more confident and straightforward earlier on.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely, absolutely and the parents found it an advantage, all this supervision.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Because, they were able to both have free time, personal time themselves and then have well-supervised children. They didn't have to choose between taking time for themselves to go exercise or sleep or hang out with a friend or something and having their child cared for. They could have...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: ...someone caring for their child and still have free time to go exercise or whatever they wanted to do.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, excellent. I certainly remember having to rely on my kids when I was a teenager on rides and it was a real pain...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Mm-hmm.

[Angel Donovan]: ...because, you can't just walk across to the other side of town if you want to do something. So, it's funny that it came up. So, how about disadvantages, is all rosy or...?"

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Definitely not all rosy. The complexity and having to put so much effort into maintaining and scheduling and negotiating and talking about emotion and processing jealously, it's a very high-maintenance relationship style for most people.

Some people...the vast minority of people, I would say talk about it as if it's kind of fairly effortless for them. It just flows with...and those are the people I think are really polyamorous by sexual orientation and the complexity doesn't seem to bother them. It doesn't seem like a core. It feels right to them to be in this kind of constant group puppy pile, almost.

For other people, balancing multiple lovers' needs at the same time can sometimes feel like a burden. Not having enough time for other things, not enough time alone.

A lot of people talk about that secondary position of feeling emotionally invested in a relationship that then someone else has control over. They fall in love with someone but, that other person's spouse doesn't like them. So, they try to put limits on how much time they can spend together or what kinds of things they can do together and that feels very difficult for them.

[Angel Donovan]: Sounds like politics, yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Very political, very political.

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And the person caught between two lovers who don't like each other, that is a terrible position to be in. Frequency people mention that as one of the disadvantages, trying to keep everyone happy.

Poly people, while it's not a big disadvantage being discriminated against in general because, people I think don't think about polyamory. When they see like a woman with her husband and her boyfriend at a restaurant, they don't necessarily think that's a woman with her husband and her boyfriend. They think, that's a couple with their brother or their friends or that's her employee or you know, something. It's not...poly triad is not the first thought that comes to people's minds.

So in kind of average life, poly people can fly under the radar and aren't that noticeable but, when they do get noticed, when they bring multiple partners to an event at work or the landlord realizes that they have multiple partners living there. They can experience significant familia and legal discrimination.

It's legal in the United States to fire people or evict them from housing or take their children away. If the state feels concerned enough that the home setting is not good for the kids then, their children will get taken away and that's happened here already in the States. Not a lot and it takes someone else kind of noticing the polyamorous family and making a problem around it for the state but, if that does happen...

If Child Protective Services, for instance comes in and takes the kid and the parents have to go to court to try to get them back then, it looks bad. Polyamory looks bad legally in court.

[Angel Donovan]: So is that only where there's some kind of other issue, like the kids aren't being looked after or something like that and then, polyamorous...being in a polyamorous crowd doesn't help your case? Or is it the whole case is based on polyamory?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: It happens in both instances. Sometimes, in one instance a kid ran away and that's what got the state's attention because, he was a runaway and then, they came in and were like, "Why is your kid running away? Oh, he's unhappy with the home because..." and he said it was because of polyamory. It actually ended up that was feeling bad himself.

He had gotten this girl pregnant and wasn't telling anybody and he ran away because, it was too much kind of emotional angst in his life but then, he blamed it on the poly family because, that was kind of a more convenient excuse. So yes, in that case, it was something else that brought the authorities attention and then, the polyamory became a big deal.

In other cases, sometimes it is just the polyamory itself. One of the most famous cases, April Divilbliss was in Time Magazine and this was in the 90s. Her kid was taken away but, her ex-mother-in-law saw her on a television program talking about being in a polyamorous triad with these two men neither of whom were the father of her child. So, her ex-mother-in-law sued for custody on behalf of her ex-husband who actually happened to be in jail for armed robbery but, he got custody of the kid because, somehow being an armed felon is less egregious than being in a polyamorous relationship.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. Is this something...we're 25 years on now. Is that still a scenario that could come up? It's just something legally you should be aware of if you're going to have kids.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely and if you have any kind of issue where your parents or your ex's or you ex or your whoever would try to sue for custody then, don't go on television talking about polyamory.

[Angel Donovan]: Right. It's a neat...yeah, something you want to publicize a lot.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: No unless, you aren't kind of in a fragile position like that. If you are strong in your position and you know that no one can attack then, it can be very important to come out as polyamorous because, the more people who come out, the less stigma and the less discrimination. We've definitely seen that with gay that more and more gay people coming out has meant serious political change. I think the same thing will probably happen with polyamory but, it's just not as safe to come out right now.

[Angel Donovan]: There are smaller numbers as well.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Smaller numbers definitely and directly riding the coattails of all the political liberation that the gay people worked so hard for.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, they were pretty but, I can't see the polyamory crowds coming out in mass. They don't...like there's not as much stigma. There are not as many problems. So, they haven't got as much motivation to kind of lobby for change and things like this.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Agreed.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, different situation but, thank God it's not as bad.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes.

[Angel Donovan]: So, are there any dating strategies or relationship strategies that you've seen in polyamory which you think would be applicable to other relationships and could beneficial.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Oh absolutely. For one thing, use honesty and communication to negotiate the kind of relationship you want. If there's one thing that polyamorous show us, it's that you can negotiate any kind of relationship you want, as long as the other person is consenting to it. Then, you can have a non-monogamous relationship or a monogamous relationship or a Dominant/submissive relationship. Whatever you want just be willing to make [inaudible].

[Angel Donovan]: Or, a less committed relationship.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: It's just it's something that we get a question from a lot of guys in their 20s because, they're not ready to get into a serious relationship. They just want to date and they're worried about hurting women or upsetting them or they're just worried about telling her they think she's going to run away if he says he's not interested in commitment.

We've been doing this for a while. We said, "No, actually. It's pretty straightforward. You tell them like it is and it's pretty straightforward." It sounds like in the polyamory, right, that's something that they've gotten good at as well. You can basically say what you want to say, like...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: "My life right now, it's not..." You just tell them really honestly straightforwardly and it doesn't become such a big issue.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely and sometimes other people are...you know, if you don't want a commitment, sometimes other people are not going to want to date you but, that's good because, those are the kinds of people you don't to date right then. Maybe 15, 20 years whatever, you want a commitment who knows but, the honestly actually keeps you from hurting other people because, then they know what to expect from you and that makes a huge difference.

[Angel Donovan]: It also reduces kind of dramatic burden or conflictual burden or whatever you want to call it. I now think that's...just talking from the guy’s perspective, a lot of time, they kind of get upset when the girls get upset. So, it avoids all of that. Basically, the ones who are going to upset...some people are always going to get upset because, they want commitment and if you're somewhere, then it's never going to work out and you can just avoid all of that hassle being straightforward.

Okay, that's a good one. Are there any others?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yes, I would say, do things to keep yourself interesting. Don't just rely on a romantic partnership to be everything for you. Have your own, not only friends but, hobbies and interests. Do some volunteer work. Do something so you're just this kind of aching need to be filled by other people. Have interesting things about yourself so that you are invested in your own life because, those interesting things, not only is it a good way to meet people, doing volunteer or getting involved in the community but, it makes you more appealing to other people when you have those interesting exciting things about yourself.

One of my respondents said that in her first marriage that was monogamous, she like...she got married and then, that was kind of it. Like both of them stopped. They had gotten and so, they didn't feel like they needed to be interesting or attractive or any of those things anymore. Like, they were married so they were done.

Then when they divorced, she started these hobbies. She lost all sorts of weight. She got involved in things and she was like, "Why wasn't I doing this from the beginning? I could have been a person that my husband was interested in from the beginning." It took the divorce to get her out this rut, then be more interesting again. So now, even though she has multiple partnerships, she still focuses on what is she going to do for herself? Not only to be interesting to other people but, to be, to have a more well-rounded life in general.

So, I would say the honesty, communication and self-investment are translated across all sorts of relationships. Also, being willing to negotiate outside of kind of conventional relationship boundaries...I see that a lot in polyamorous families where they have just a lot more fluidity as to over the long haul. Who earns money and who takes care of the kids?

When you've got multiple adults, it doesn't always have to be a man earning money and a woman taking care of the kids. So, it could be some mix of that and in long-term polyamorous families, there's often kind of a rotating caretaker.

You know, if you have four adults then, one adult's always home with the kid but, the other three are going to school, starting a small business, working for a large corporation, something like. So, that flexibility to not be stuck in socially prescribed roles can...even if there are socially prescribed roles for people in monogamous relationships, they don't have to go with those.

They can innovate something new which is what the polyamorous do because, there is not socially prescribed role for how to deal with your husband's girlfriend or something. They've got to make that up. So, it allows them then to make up all sorts of other things too. It gives them the freedom to kind of reinvent themselves and their roles...

[Angel Donovan]: Right.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: ...and their interactions and people in monogamous relationships can do that too.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah absolutely. So, people in monogamous relationships tend to...we tend to think it starts in a place and it has to kind of stay within that kind of same place but, the relationship is going to evolve. If you're going to change, the relationship can evolve too and it's kind of like you've got renegotiate that. Just like you were saying that polyamorous have got used to and it's part of the way it works. We can definitely learn from that instead of trying stay too attached to how things are or how they work. [Elisabeth Sheff]: The one last...one of kind of the most major thing I would say for monogamists to learn from polyamorists is, when the relationship is over, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a failure. It just means it work however it worked for that period of time and now, it's not working anymore. So, try something different.

I think this feeling that, in monogamous relationships, if they end, it's a failure. It makes people hang in there until the bloody end when they have done all sorts of horrible things to each other. They've done all these things to try to stay together and in some cases, that's great.

Do fight for the relationship. Do try to stay together. You know, try communication and honesty and self-revelation and counseling and all sorts of things but, once it's...

[Angel Donovan]: Some of that can be good, you know if it spurs you to positively change but, there becomes a point we have to accept that it's not going to work.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: And then once you've accepted that, as soon as that's clear, then in a kind and loving way change the relationship. You don't have to hold on until the very last moment when the only thing left to do is just eviscerate each other.

You could actually stop sooner when you can still be nice before you've done terrible things to each and say, "Okay, this isn't working for us anymore. This isn't a failure. We just need to do something different."

I think that would actually make a huge different for some monogamous relationships that to try to avoid the failure, do everything they can to stay together including, putting up with violence, putting up a toxic relationship that is just not good for anyone in it. Better to stop long before that and move on to different things instead forcing yourself to stay to the bitter end when it's really terrible for everyone concerned.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, [inaudible] those people end up being your friends for a long time or...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Exactly.

[Angel Donovan]:...you know, whatever some other type of relationship down the road. [inaudible]

[Elisabeth Sheff]: When you leave when you can still look them in the eye instead of cheating on them and doing...stealing their money. You know whatever, people do horrible things in breakups. Leave before that.

[Angel Donovan]: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Eli thank you so much for all your tips today and your academic research notes. So, how do people find you on the internet. Where are you active? Are you active on Twitter or your website? You know, where's the best place?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: I do have a website. www.ElisabethSheff.com. I also blog on www.PsychologyToday.com. The name of my blog is the same as my first book, The Polyamorists Next Door. They can also find my second coming out this fall, Stories from the Poly Quell. It's an edited anthology written by polyamorous people in polyamorous families.

[Angel Donovan]: Thank you so much those. We'll put all that in the show notes as well. Couple of quick questions. Besides yourself, are there other people you'd recommend? Like, you respect their advice or there research or anything in this area?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Maria Pallotta Chiarolli in Australia has done some amazing research on bi-sexuality and linked from bi-sexuality into polyamory. Meg Barker in London (she's at the Open University in London) has done some great research on polyamory. There's just not a lot of research on polyamory. Most of the books have been written by polyamorists themselves. Most of the books out there...

[Angel Donovan]: [inaudible], yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: ...yeah, are advice on how to do it.

[Angel Donovan]: So, the area of like the number of people studying polyamory is quite few at the moment?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Small but growing, yes. It is increasing. In 2005, I started online research community called Poly Researchers and wow, ten years ago now. I think about that. We grew from a group of like 15 or 20 people at first to now, we have over 500 members.

[Angel Donovan]: Wow, that's a lot.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: All talking about research on polyamory, how to do it, where to get the respondents, where to get funding, how to get IRB approval.

[Angel Donovan]: That's great.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Things like that yeah. It's really, it's exciting.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, that sounds very cool. 500?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Over 500 now...

[Angel Donovan]: I'm sure it's going to grow a lot faster now as well.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: ...and they're from all over the world.

[Angel Donovan]: Is it...there's not one in China, right? Is there one in China?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: No, no not right now.

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah, [inaudible]

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Polyamory mostly happens in countries where women have access to their own money. In countries where women are more restricted, it tends to be polygyny or one man with multiple wives.

[Angel Donovan]: That's the model in China still.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: China and in the Middle East, in parts of Africa.

[Angel Donovan]: Chinese businessmen tend to have mistresses and...

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Right.

[Angel Donovan]: ...but, I was wondering in Japan because, I know there's a lot of individuality and independence economically there but, also the culture. I'm not sure would fit with polyamory right now. Is there any researching that?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Not so far in Japan. The most of the polyamory we see is in the US and Canada...

[Angel Donovan]: Yeah.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: ...Western Europe and Australia. A little bit in South America is just starting. There's one researcher in South America right now but, for the most part it's Europe, North America and Australia.

[Angel Donovan]: Cool, very cool. I guess there's a few in France. They've got a reputation for that too.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Yeah, yeah. Europe has some serious polyamorous and Germany.

[Angel Donovan]: Right, very cool. What would be your top three tips to men to improve their relationships if they were staring from zero. You know, they don't really know anything, haven't got a lot of experience. What would be the three things you would tell them to focus on?

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Don't forget the clitoris, I would say is the very first thing. Do not forget that clitoris and second thing, don't forget the clitoris. No so, definitely remember the clitoris.

Secondly, honesty is sexy. Being your real self not a sham. Authenticity is appealing to women. They really like that.

Cleaning is excellent for play. If you want a woman to have sex with you and the kitchen is a wreck, clean that kitchen first and she will be all over you. You won't even be able to put the dishes away before she's pulling your pants off.

[Angel Donovan]: That's a funny thing in relationships, these kind of things distract women.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Oh yes.

[Angel Donovan]: Sex, it makes them kind of uncomfortable because, they've got things in their head they feel they have to do. So, if she's [inaudible] in the kitchen or whatever it is. So, if you can take those things off her mind, it might help.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Absolutely.

[Angel Donovan]: Cool, thank you very much for those tips and thank you for your time today. I really enjoyed the chat.

[Elisabeth Sheff]: Thank you for having me. Bye, bye.